Stop Barking At Passing By Dogs

[fbaudry]

Am I imagining something?

That sounds like something coming from someone who was banned after a thread on a GSD turned disastrous...

[Amax-1]

Am I imagining something?

That sounds like something coming from someone who was banned after a thread on a GSD turned disastrous...

Are training techniques restricted in discussion to Karen Prior/Susan Garrett concepts?

[sheena]

Sometimes when we first arrive at an exciting environment, I have to play the game for a few minutes to settle her down. Now I take her mat along & am teaching her to stay on the mat & relax, while everything is going on around her. :)

That's because the dog has never learned consequence for the wrong behaviour. If corrections were used in conjunction with positive reinforcement, you wouldn't need to settle her down with the mat etc when a dog is trained using methods incorporating double reinforcement.

It's my choice, that I don't use correction/physical force techniques in my dog training. So what would you do in a situation like that...bash the dog with a piece of 4 x 2...then give it a treat. For me, positive reinforcement works well & if I choose to teach my dog to lay quietly on a mat while I am instructing a class in agility, it's a win win situation for both me & my dog.

[RazorBlade]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

[persephone]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

agree.

[huski]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

agree.

Apparently there are only two options in dog training; use a clicker or bash the dog with a 4x2.

[persephone]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

agree.

Apparently there are only two options in dog training; use a clicker or bash the dog with a 4x2.

aaahhh That explains it :)

[Salukifan]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

Because they don't understand the concept of appropriate aversives or the fact that it is scientifically proven that dogs learn faster with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

And of course this is all fuelled by the "purely positive" concept of training and those who espouse it. Personal fave "telling a dog no three times is abuse".

Used to be standing joke among dog folk I knew that you could always spot a purely positive trainer - they couldn't do anything with their dogs. Quite a few "positive trainers" use negative reinforcement - they just don't call it that. Example.. dog breaks at the start or runs off on agility course, trainer declares "game over" and exists the course and the dog gets no more time on the course.. THAT is negative reinforcement. Dog receives (to it) and adverse consequence for its behaviour.

Susan Garratt says it and I agree "positive should not be permissive" and most balanced trainers lean towards positive reinforcenent but understand that on occasions and aversive is called for. Why halve your training toolbox to eliminate tools that work and that are not abusive. You don't have to it a dog to correct it. What do people think "uh uh" said to a pup is??

Dogs need boundaries and negative reinforcement is what tells them where those boundaries lie.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Salukifan]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

agree.

Apparently there are only two options in dog training; use a clicker or bash the dog with a 4x2.

While it is wearing a prong collar and/or being zapped with an e-collar too Used to pee myself laughing at the idea oft trotted out here that K9Pro was Mr Prong and Mr "Fry them with the E-Collar" and that was all he did... especially after seeing him work my friend's nervous poodle swinging a flarfy toy.

[huski]

Why as soon as someone mentions any sort of correction technique do people automatically make the leap to "bashing the dog with a piece of 4x2?"

agree.

Apparently there are only two options in dog training; use a clicker or bash the dog with a 4x2.

While it is wearing a prong collar and/or being zapped with an e-collar too Used to pee myself laughing at the idea oft trotted out here that K9Pro was Mr Prong and Mr "Fry them with the E-Collar" and that was all he did... especially after seeing him work my friend's nervous poodle swinging a flarfy toy.

LOL, and it is still an idea trotted out sometimes now, we won't tell them he's really a big softie ;) :laugh:

[Salukifan]

That's good Cosmolo that it works for you but it is fairly clear that "yes" is not working for the OP.

So far the OP has been distracting her dog from approaching dogs. I don't consider that this is training her dog not to bark at them. I think the effectivenes of whatever marker is being used is a side issue.

Could this be done without an aversive? Provided she can get her dog's attention and cue the dog to offer an alternative and better behaviour (eg. look at me) then YES.

But this IS a JRT, a reactive, vocal breed. This is natural, territorial canine behaviour. OP wants to train her dog to do something that comes very very naturally and this is not a dog with a naturally biddable temperament.

She needs to have the mother of all motivators to obtain the desired behaviour and to reward it when she gets it before she can cue it.

Squeaky rat.. given at no other times? Squeak to get dog's attention, reward with rat when dog has passed and no barking??? Then the squeak is the cue and getting the rat is the positive reinforcement. Who knows, the dog may end up offering the behaviour when a dog approaches - wouldn't be the first time provided you can find a motivator more rewarding than a good barking at an approaching dog.

It is not always possible to have a clicker with you. They are not permiitted in trialling situations for a start. I think it is perfectly acceptable and effective to train an alternative marker such as "yes" for such situations and frankly seeing a lot of novices fumble with clicker, treat and lead, possibly easier for some folk too.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Salukifan]

Double post

Edited February 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Salukifan]

Sometimes when we first arrive at an exciting environment, I have to play the game for a few minutes to settle her down. Now I take her mat along & am teaching her to stay on the mat & relax, while everything is going on around her. :)

That's because the dog has never learned consequence for the wrong behaviour. If corrections were used in conjunction with positive reinforcement, you wouldn't need to settle her down with the mat etc when a dog is trained using methods incorporating double reinforcement.

It's my choice, that I don't use correction/physical force techniques in my dog training. So what would you do in a situation like that...bash the dog with a piece of 4 x 2...then give it a treat. For me, positive reinforcement works well & if I choose to teach my dog to lay quietly on a mat while I am instructing a class in agility, it's a win win situation for both me & my dog.

It won't be if another dog gets in her face or has a go at her. Why not put simply her in a crate? That way you can completely devote your attention to your class and there is no risk to your dog from others.

[Sylvie]

That's good Cosmolo that it works for you but it is fairly clear that "yes" is not working for the OP.

So far the OP has been distracting her dog from approaching dogs. I don't consider that this is training her dog not to bark at them. I think the effectivenes of whatever marker is being used is a side issue.

Could this be done without an aversive? Provided she can get her dog's attention and cue the dog to offer an alternative and better behaviour (eg. look at me) then YES.

But this IS a JRT, a reactive, vocal breed. This is natural, territorial canine behaviour. OP wants to train her dog to do something that comes very very naturally and this is not a dog with a naturally biddable temperament.

She needs to have the mother of all motivators to obtain the desired behaviour and to reward it when she gets it before she can cue it.

Squeaky rat.. given at no other times? Squeak to get dog's attention, reward with rat when dog has passed and no barking??? Then the squeak is the cue and getting the rat is the positive reinforcement. Who knows, the dog may end up offering the behaviour when a dog approaches - wouldn't be the first time provided you can find a motivator more rewarding than a good barking at an approaching dog.

It is not always possible to have a clicker with you. They are not permiitted in trialling situations for a start. I think it is perfectly acceptable and effective to train an alternative marker such as "yes" for such situations and frankly seeing a lot of novices fumble with clicker, treat and lead, possibly easier for some folk too.

I totally agree with what you said Haredown Whippets. I am only distracting him from approaching dogs. He is in fact a reactive JRT and he is 9 years old so I understand it is going to be hard (if not impossible as my OH keeps telling me) to train this behaviour out. That is why he is never going to stay in the front yard on his own. I don't want any problems with my neighbours (some of them are very sensitive!).

The squeaky rat won't work as "the mother of all motivators" for him because he is scared of any squeaky toys (runs away from them, when his brother used to play with one he was trying to go and hide somewhere), and he hates any toys in general. I have been trying to get him to play with or fetch a soft fluffy toy since I got him ( 2 years ago), but he still won't touch it if I don't have any treats at hand. If I got treats he will tug on it and go and get it as far as 2/3 meters now. The mother of all motivators for him would probably be a live one or lizard but that's not going to happen.

He is very food driven though and I will try and get a clicker to see if I can do a better job. We used to have 2 of them (JRT) and I already found I did not have enough hands for the 2 leads and the treats, so adding a clicker was not really an option. Now we got only the one I might give it a go. I might just borrow one from a friend to check he is not going to freak out at the sound of it and see if I can get him used to it and like it.

A front yard patio is probably not the best for him but that what we have ( or are going to have) so we will try our best.

[Salukifan]

I totally agree with what you said Haredown Whippets. I am only distracting him from approaching dogs. He is in fact a reactive JRT and he is 9 years old so I understand it is going to be hard (if not impossible as my OH keeps telling me) to train this behaviour out. That is why he is never going to stay in the front yard on his own. I don't want any problems with my neighbours (some of them are very sensitive!).

The squeaky rat won't work as "the mother of all motivators" for him because he is scared of any squeaky toys (runs away from them, when his brother used to play with one he was trying to go and hide somewhere), and he hates any toys in general. I have been trying to get him to play with or fetch a soft fluffy toy since I got him ( 2 years ago), but he still won't touch it if I don't have any treats at hand. If I got treats he will tug on it and go and get it as far as 2/3 meters now. The mother of all motivators for him would probably be a live one or lizard but that's not going to happen.

He is very food driven though and I will try and get a clicker to see if I can do a better job. We used to have 2 of them (JRT) and I already found I did not have enough hands for the 2 leads and the treats, so adding a clicker was not really an option. Now we got only the one I might give it a go. I might just borrow one from a friend to check he is not going to freak out at the sound of it and see if I can get him used to it and like it.

A front yard patio is probably not the best for him but that what we have ( or are going to have) so we will try our best.

Training tip: put the treat you want to use in the same hand as the clicker. I like the I-clicks best. Then you click and take the treat out of that hand. :) You can replenish the treat in your hand from your bait bag after treating.

If you are on the front porch, given that he is a little dog, you can attach his lead to a chair and sit with him.

OK toys are out. You need the mother of all food treats.. roast chicken? Steak? Somethign super yummy he gets at no other time.

What is the behaviour you propose to train to replace the barking? You need to start training this with the dogs at some distance and work up to them being closer.. at the moment before he is triggered to react, that is when you ask for the behaviour but you need to train it first without distraction than build up to cueing it on the front porch with distractions.

[sheena]

Sometimes when we first arrive at an exciting environment, I have to play the game for a few minutes to settle her down. Now I take her mat along & am teaching her to stay on the mat & relax, while everything is going on around her. :)

That's because the dog has never learned consequence for the wrong behaviour. If corrections were used in conjunction with positive reinforcement, you wouldn't need to settle her down with the mat etc when a dog is trained using methods incorporating double reinforcement.

It's my choice, that I don't use correction/physical force techniques in my dog training. So what would you do in a situation like that...bash the dog with a piece of 4 x 2...then give it a treat. For me, positive reinforcement works well & if I choose to teach my dog to lay quietly on a mat while I am instructing a class in agility, it's a win win situation for both me & my dog.

It won't be if another dog gets in her face or has a go at her. Why not put simply her in a crate? That way you can completely devote your attention to your class and there is no risk to your dog from others.

Don't worry your little old bunny ears :laugh: She is on the mat but at my feet while I instruct & often on a lead as well. If I have to move away, then she is on the mat next to someone else. Excellent opportunity to train calm behaviour & at no time is any dog put in danger :) If we all have to go far away, like walk the course then both dogs get put in the car. Have you never read "Controlled Unleashed ) ?? I don't expect my dog to remain the whole time in a crate while I take a class. She is entitled to have some training there as well & that is the only opportunity.

[Salukifan]

Don't worry your little old bunny ears :laugh: She is on the mat but at my feet while I instruct & often on a lead as well. If I have to move away, then she is on the mat next to someone else. Excellent opportunity to train calm behaviour & at no time is any dog put in danger :) If we all have to go far away, like walk the course then both dogs get put in the car. Have you never read "Controlled Unleashed ) ?? I don't expect my dog to remain the whole time in a crate while I take a class. She is entitled to have some training there as well & that is the only opportunity.

I gather then that you don't take group classes? Your situation is clearly quite different to the classes I trained. Up to 12 handlers and dogs, usually novices and with varying degrees of control (and dogs of varying temperament). Multiple pieces of equipment and sets requiring a lot of movement between them for me and at the lower levels, very hands on for me helping dogs and handlers learn equipment (holding chute ends up, controlling rate of see saw fall etc).

My dogs were usually at home. I needed eyes in the back of my head to ensure handlers were doing the right thing :laugh: And yes, I broke up scuffles between dogs and dogs did run away and get in other dogs faces. All this despite control and temperament tests prior to training although those tests sure did weed out most of the issues.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[sheena]

I take an advanced class of about 6 handlers & their dogs. If I had a beginners class then I wouldn't even have my dog on the field. :) Lesley McDevitt explains all about the advantages of "mat training" in her book "Controlled Unleashed" which the OP has read. Maybe some mat training might help with her problems too in addition to all the other suggestions that have been made. :)

[Amax-1]

Sometimes when we first arrive at an exciting environment, I have to play the game for a few minutes to settle her down. Now I take her mat along & am teaching her to stay on the mat & relax, while everything is going on around her. :)

That's because the dog has never learned consequence for the wrong behaviour. If corrections were used in conjunction with positive reinforcement, you wouldn't need to settle her down with the mat etc when a dog is trained using methods incorporating double reinforcement.

It's my choice, that I don't use correction/physical force techniques in my dog training. So what would you do in a situation like that...bash the dog with a piece of 4 x 2...then give it a treat. For me, positive reinforcement works well & if I choose to teach my dog to lay quietly on a mat while I am instructing a class in agility, it's a win win situation for both me & my dog.

I am not actually referring to the mat, it's this: Sometimes when we first arrive at an exciting environment, I have to play the game for a few minutes to settle her down. which sound's like a reliability problem? When I arrive at every job it's exciting for the dog and when getting him out of the van he's pretty much nearing full drive to track and/or apprehend someone....we don't have the luxury of paying games to settle the dog which provides a good test of training methods to determine which methods provide the greatest reliability factor when reliable behaviour from the dog is first and foremost the priority.

You don't bash the dog with lump of 4x2, but some depending on their genetic ability to focus will be given leash corrections as a consequence to the wrong behaviour.

Because they don't understand the concept of appropriate aversives or the fact that it is scientifically proven that dogs learn faster with a combination of positive and negative reinforcement.

Well said, I agree

Edited February 26, 2014 by Amax-1

[Amax-1]

What I would do in a position similar to the OP's to stop a dog running to the fence barking at other dogs which is a behaviour you want to extinguish completely, I would have the dog on leash laying there relaxing and watch for the trigger. The moment the dog from seeing another dog just starts to get up to run at the fence, I would give the dog a good leash correction and tell him/her NO followed by a command....sit, drop whatever then reward compliance with the command. You actually want the dog to avoid correction or fear a correction for behaviour you want to extinguish altogether.......that's when aversives are the most effective.

If for example I wanted to allow the dog to run at the fence and bark on command, I wouldn't use an aversive, I would reward the dog for holding command, sit or drop by releasing the dog to bark at the fence when I permitted it. In simplified terms, if a dog has a high value need to run to the fence and bark at other dogs, trying to encourage the dog to receive more value in food treats or redirecting energy to a toy or something may work on some dog character's but if it doesn't work easily with limited progress, the dog needs an aversive to introduce consequence for the wrong behaviour.