Annoyed At Puppy Preschool

[apocalypsepwnie]

I can see now you're either one of two kinds of people when owning a dog. 1) you give a crap about your dog 2) you don't

It upsets me that these kind of people give small dog owners a bad rep.

I love all dogs, I have my preference in owning certain breeds but that's because they fit my lifestyle. I couldn't own a kelpie, cattle or greyhound because honestly if you see me running, you better run too!

They lack the understanding by being ignorant that their dog being aggressive is more stressful for the dog than it is on them. If you own a dog, please give it the same love it gives you. Take the time to research your breed and training that will fit in with your life. You can't just expect a dog to behave by being around you and getting the hint. It's also not the trainer's responsibility to train your dog. The program is there more for you than it is for your dog. Your pup DEPENDS on you for guidance.

Ignorance is negligence IMO.

I'm still quite angry and emotional about it now, I'm very passionate about training your dog specifically aggression issues, so calling the vet won't be a good idea. I don't think it would be a rational or productive conversation.

[dididog]

I was worried about resource guarding however Vinnie is quite happy to share.

I fear that the other people in the class regard Vinnie and Marty as scary. I know that Sammie's owners don't, as she is a staffy albeit small, they allow her to play with our dogs with no issue but are quite quick to pull them from the small dogs when they play up.

The rest of them pull their dogs away from them in the waiting room, other than Barney, and find Vinnie to be the class clown. They are all amazed that Marty is so well behaved and can do all the commands without treats. Vinnie can too thankyou!

Didi also likes to share, she did the cutest thing in the class where they were given toys, we had a different instructor and she made everyone pick up their puppies and only let Didi play with the only other big puppy in the class (german shep) who she doesn't like. She'd been playing with the beagle puppy next to us with a squeaky elephant toy and when the beagle got picked up and Didi let off her lead the first thing she did was reach up and give the beagle puppy the toy which was a bit of an 'awwhh' moment.

I get what you mean about the big dog = stupid/can't play with my puppy stigma. Didi is kind of high strung and goofy looking so I could just see everybody thinking "oh look at that boof head puppy" while she would swim and roll around on the floor chewing her own feet but at the end at the last class when we had to go through all the commands Didi was the only one who did them perfectly and got a bit of a clap, which I must admit made me quite pleased (smug).

It sounds as though you've got systems in place to deal with any problems next week and I can understand your instructor being hesitant to single anybody out as I too would feel uncomfortable. I was considering leaving puppy school after the third class but I figured it wasn't doing her any detriment, she had fun and she got used to playing with dogs much smaller than her, after the first class she stopped bounding around and jumping on the puppies when she realised they didn't like it and was just as happy to lie down to play bitey face :)

We are actually going to an event hosted by the school tonight in order to get her graduation photo (a bit ridiculous but cute all the same) but it is also a reunion for everyone who has done their classes in the past(i think they said they invited 900 ) I can only imagine the chaos so I think it will be a quick visit to get the photo and leave.

[Little Gifts]

This sounded like the only puppy school I've been to as well and sadly we were the main culprits of the chaos! I had a 13 week old rescue sbt who was used to rough housing it with two larger breed adult dogs and who loved everybody and everything and pretty much carried on like she had ADHD at every class. The rest were all molly coddling their fluffies and had no real interest in socialising or training them to do anything apart from lie on their laps and not pee on the carpet. My girl was always the first to piddle on the floor or be doing something she shouldn't. She was just a whirlwind of excitement. We tried so hard to be good, honest! I was very glad when she finally graduated and we didn't have to see their panicked faces again. Then we went and bothered new people in a beginners class for another 6 weeks.....

[Salukifan]

They lack the understanding by being ignorant that their dog being aggressive is more stressful for the dog than it is on them. If you own a dog, please give it the same love it gives you. Take the time to research your breed and training that will fit in with your life. You can't just expect a dog to behave by being around you and getting the hint. It's also not the trainer's responsibility to train your dog. The program is there more for you than it is for your dog. Your pup DEPENDS on you for guidance.

Ignorance is negligence IMO.

I'm still quite angry and emotional about it now, I'm very passionate about training your dog specifically aggression issues, so calling the vet won't be a good idea. I don't think it would be a rational or productive conversation.

The owners of the aggressive pup are attending a class that should be giving them some skills to deal with their pup. You think you're not getting what you need? Sounds like you're not the only one.

It is the responsibility of the trainer to ensure appropriate interaction between pups AND to control the behaviour of human attendees. If you want to direct your ire in an appropriate direction, I suggest that's a better target than a novice puppy owner.

If you think it is detrimental for your pup to attend, ask for your money back. I would.

[Dogsfevr]

The exact reason we tell our puppy owners not to attend puppy pre school Unless it is run by an actual trainer with knowledge ,we recommend a puppy class run privately where the complete opposite is taught .

Plus 1.5 hrs is crazy for any puppy most are over it in 30 mins .

Often there held in small rooms & its like cabin fever ,to much invading personal space .

Its sad these classes have become such a fad with vets as money grabbers but most teach worse manners & the owners are left with training out all the bad things when older .

I would just wait & go to a good obedience class

[Dory the Doted One]

Do people honestly think that just because someone is a Vet Nurse they automatically know nothing about dog behaviour and training? There are a lot of Vet Nurses out there who have done any number of behaviour courses/seminars etc, aside from training their own dogs. There is good and bad in every camp and there are plenty of 'dog trainers' out there with absolutely no clue either...and some of them have even done the limited courses that are available here in Australia.

[DeltaCharlie]

One thing I meant to add before.

If you are feeling anxious when you are there- don't go! The last thing you want is for him to think there is a reason to be anxious, they are unbelievably good at picking up on our moods.

I have experienced first hand the effect that my anxiety has on my dogs when I felt too much pressure at a club years ago. My heart would be racing as I pulled up the drive and before long, Delta would refuse to do anything for me. I switched clubs and she was like a whole new dog again! I will never do that to them again.

[Salukifan]

Do people honestly think that just because someone is a Vet Nurse they automatically know nothing about dog behaviour and training? There are a lot of Vet Nurses out there who have done any number of behaviour courses/seminars etc, aside from training their own dogs. There is good and bad in every camp and there are plenty of 'dog trainers' out there with absolutely no clue either...and some of them have even done the limited courses that are available here in Australia.

I think its more the reverse. I don't assume because someone is a vet nurse (or a vet for that matter) that they are knowledgeable or proficient trainers.

I think the same of those who hang up their shingle as dog trainers. Doesn't matter how many courses you've done or how well you can spruik on about operant conditoning, if you cannot communicate effectively with handlers and dogs, you're not getting my vote.

Same again for those who have trained THEIR dogs to a very high level. It does not mean that they understand dog behaviour all that well or that they make good general dog trainers.

It's a very special combination of skill, experience and knowledge that make for a great trainer. That starts with someone who doesn't want to train all dogs using the same recipe.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Simply Grand]

Do people honestly think that just because someone is a Vet Nurse they automatically know nothing about dog behaviour and training? There are a lot of Vet Nurses out there who have done any number of behaviour courses/seminars etc, aside from training their own dogs. There is good and bad in every camp and there are plenty of 'dog trainers' out there with absolutely no clue either...and some of them have even done the limited courses that are available here in Australia.

The instructor of Saxon and Riley's puppy preschool was a vet nurse at the time and she had excellent behaviour and training knowledge, she ran the classes beautifully. She now works as a behaviourist and trainer.

The trouble is it's hard for owners who are not that experienced to know whether their Instructor has the knowledge and is telling them the right things or not. I think it's important for owners to remember that it is still their dog and of they or their puppy is not comfortable with something they have every right to move out of the situation or do something else. It takes a little bit of time and experience to realise this and be comfortable doing it, now that I'm teaching classes I've told them this and I can see its taken the pressure off some people whose puppies wouldn't always do what they were asked or were "misbehaving".

I also tell them that they always need to be watching their puppy to make sure it is not getting uncomfortable, can move away if worried etc, and we do controlled meetings between puppies and talk about body language. Sometimes people don't yet understand their dog's body language so they don't realise their puppy is scared/frustrated/tired/being inappropriate to others etc etc and that is where I definitely think it is the instructor's job to,step in and tell whoever's involved to move this pup, that pup or all of them away because of XXX.

1.5 hours is definitely going to make it difficult, puppies just cannot concentrate that long! Our classes are 1 hour and by the end most pups have lost it, I try to do easy/fun things towards the end of class like calming/handling, playing on mini agility equipment (to experience new things without it being scary) and saying brief on lead hellos between suited pups.

[Christina]

I'd say cut your loses & move on.

Can't understand why its a good idea for various pups to be in a room all together & chairs there too.

I would find a dog training place that is run in the open air on an oval & go without your dog to check it out first. One that has dogs of all ages.

If it looks controlled, organised & orderly then you can join up the next week.

They are usually only a few dollars, will get your dog used to being there with other dogs & get it trained as well. They normally only run for about 30 to 45 minutes which is long enough for a puppy.

[Scottsmum]

I'd say cut your loses & move on.

Can't understand why its a good idea for various pups to be in a room all together & chairs there too.

I would find a dog training place that is run in the open air on an oval & go without your dog to check it out first. One that has dogs of all ages.

If it looks controlled, organised & orderly then you can join up the next week.

They are usually only a few dollars, will get your dog used to being there with other dogs & get it trained as well. They normally only run for about 30 to 45 minutes which is long enough for a puppy.

They're not that easy to find (I looked all over the inner west of Sydney to find something like you just described.

The upside to a dedicated puppy class is I) you can discuss topics such as vaccination,

II) most places I approached / read up on dont take pups unless they hold it indoors so they can disinfect the floors (can;t disinfect an oval!)

III) (some believe) its less scary if there are only pups there

[dancinbcs]

The brilliant puppy school I have used is held indoors with owners sitting but it is in a large, purpose built indoor training hall that is also used to train for doggy dancing and is big enough for a full dancing routine. The difference is that it is run by one of the most experienced trainers in the state, Luci Ellem at Camarna kennels. Puppies do not get to play at all, they are there to learn to focus ont he owner in the presence of the other puppies and people. Owners sit on chairs, with their puppies at least a metre apart and any puppy that is disruptive is put further away. Exercises are explained then practiced, one at a time. Children of the owners are encouraged to come and they are swiftly trained in correct behaviour, along with the puppies. The owners are taught how to train their puppies, get their attention, keep them focused and teach them to be calm. The basis of all training that will follow.

[tdierikx]

The puppy presschools I've attended in the past used to be fun events where owners were given information about the various diseases and ailments out there, and the teaching of very basic commands like sit and drop. It also used to be dirt cheap - like $20 (total) for 4 one hour sessions over 4 weeks.

Nowadays, everyone is running them, charge a fortune, take in too many pups for the effective running course, and the result is usually disappointing for everyone except the clinic that is raking in the dollars for the course.

I'd be spending the time you'd normally be at the puppy preschool just home schooling your pup yourself until it's old enough to join in some proper dog training classes. Maybe even spreading that 1.5 hours out into 10-15 minute sessions over the whole week. Google will give you all the information you need about vaccinations, diseases, general doggy first aid, etc...

The next fun exercise for you and your pup will be finding a group training club that doesn't teach a one size fits all method of training... because the Cesar method of correction is thoroughly frowned upon by most of the touchy-feely brigade.. not to mention the use slip or check collars... (I prefer a check chain myself)

I found Hurstville Dog Training Club were pretty good at tailoring their training to the dog's needs - they train at Tempe on Sunday mornings.

T.

[apocalypsepwnie]

This sounded like the only puppy school I've been to as well and sadly we were the main culprits of the chaos! I had a 13 week old rescue sbt who was used to rough housing it with two larger breed adult dogs and who loved everybody and everything and pretty much carried on like she had ADHD at every class. The rest were all molly coddling their fluffies and had no real interest in socialising or training them to do anything apart from lie on their laps and not pee on the carpet. My girl was always the first to piddle on the floor or be doing something she shouldn't. She was just a whirlwind of excitement. We tried so hard to be good, honest! I was very glad when she finally graduated and we didn't have to see their panicked faces again. Then we went and bothered new people in a beginners class for another 6 weeks.....

I can see there is a big difference between a pup that is getting direction and trying hard to one that isn't. Vinnie was the first to wee and now everyone is getting into it hehe.

It makes me sad that they treat them as pillows with legs. A dog is a dog no matter the size and they all should be given the oportunity to learn. It's stimulating and extremely good for them. Many people wonder why little dogs are snappy. They are generally bored stiff.

They lack the understanding by being ignorant that their dog being aggressive is more stressful for the dog than it is on them. If you own a dog, please give it the same love it gives you. Take the time to research your breed and training that will fit in with your life. You can't just expect a dog to behave by being around you and getting the hint. It's also not the trainer's responsibility to train your dog. The program is there more for you than it is for your dog. Your pup DEPENDS on you for guidance. Ignorance is negligence IMO. I'm still quite angry and emotional about it now, I'm very passionate about training your dog specifically aggression issues, so calling the vet won't be a good idea. I don't think it would be a rational or productive conversation.

The owners of the aggressive pup are attending a class that should be giving them some skills to deal with their pup. You think you're not getting what you need? Sounds like you're not the only one.It is the responsibility of the trainer to ensure appropriate interaction between pups AND to control the behaviour of human attendees. If you want to direct your ire in an appropriate direction, I suggest that's a better target than a novice puppy owner.If you think it is detrimental for your pup to attend, ask for your money back. I would.

I don't have a problem with pups that need more direction than others. I have a problem with Barney and Chilli's owners because they prefer to sit and talk through the class which is disruptive. They are always the ones making noise when the intructor has to ask us to be quiet.

It bothered me that Vinnie got direction to assist when he was being disruptive due to Barney and Chilli but they didn't. It is possible they could see I was trying and very over it so assisted me rather than giving that attention to people who just don't care.

I also know there are subtle signs that even the most attentive owners don't notice which indicate your pup isn't feeling the best. However a dog that lunges, barks and bites anything moving that it can get near is a pretty obvious sign that something is happening and shouldn't be laughed at. That is being ignorant. That pup is stressed out and they are ignoring it which is neglecting the pup's emotional and physical needs.

If I laughed at Vinnie being aggressive I'm sure they would be the first to complain.

I still don't belive it is the trainer's job to train the pup. It's her job to instruct us and then we train the pup.

I can understand in a distruptive class why she probably wouldn't bother wasting her time giving specific instruction to owners who are giving off the vibe they don't care.

[Staffyluv]

No, it is the trainers job to train you to train your pup.. Ultimately, you are the one going away, after class, and putting into practice what the trainer has shown you all in the class..

Move places - don't sit near them (refuse to do so, you have paid your money).. Even sit back a bit out of the 'circle' - even 30cm back can give your dog breathing space. If the trainer asks you to move back into the circle, just explain that your pup is more comfortable out here a bit - you can still see and hear what is going on.

You could make comments to the other owners about their pups behaviour but in all honesty, that isn't going to help the situation - it sounds like they are viewing their puppy training session as a social experience for them, not their pups - it is really pointless wasting your time on them.

Concentrate on you and your pup. Because that is the relationship that matters most.

Most dog training clubs have puppy classes (once they have all their vaccinations) - if it is totally unbearable, maybe wait and just attend formal classes after full vaccination :)

[Starkehre]

I found a puppy school a few years ago that I was really happy with. I did a lot of research first and spoke at length with the instructor, told her exactly what I wanted in a class and even went along to watch one first.

Once I decided it looked like it ticked all my boxes, I took a puppy along.

Sure, there were still times when owners behaved similarly to you are describing and it was a little frustrating and there were times when talk dragged on, but I took these opportunities to do my own thing. I pre warned the instructor that I had my own ideas and would be doing my own thing at times and would keep out of everyone's way and not distract anyone else. She had no problem with that.

So, when situations arose like you describe I did a lot of distraction training or when it seemed inappropriate I moved away, I would stand over near the door or outside the circle. I did not care less if everyone was wondering what the heck I was doing cause I was there for my dog.

I joined in when I liked what was going on and I did my own thing when I didn't.

Perhaps advise the instructor that you will do the same and see what they say. If they don't like it they can ask you to leave.

But definitely do not tolerate putting yourself or your dog in a situation you do not agree with, just don't do it, get up and move away. You don't have to make a big deal about it, simply go play with your dog a little further away.

Yeh good idea to take toys, treats etc. I take a full arsenal with me

[Steph M]

I found ours pretty basic for the first week, lots of talking and basic care advice. Tbh we didn't learn much in the way of training but Gus met people, older dogs, clinic cats and we all learned a lot of handy hints, more from each other than anything but it was a good experience nonetheless. I agree with raising it with them, diva had a great way of wording at the start there. But take what you can from it and chalk it up to a learning experience.

[Nekhbet]

45 minutes of talking is garbage. You are meant to be there to learn, not to be prattled to about products and money making procedures. If that's all it is they should leave the puppies at home.

I don't believe that is too long for puppies to learn in. I run classes and I mix the young pups with slightly older pups and expose them to adult dogs too. Way more productive and the pups easily go for an hour with little breaks if they need them, but they get way too caught up in the fun of it all as we keep it dynamic. If people have questions about products, diet, medical etc we leave that until the end of the lesson and we can have as big a chat as we want then.

Puppy preschools are a great marketing tool and money spinner for most places. Very little in the way of quality education for you or the dog.

[milo&codus]

apocalypsepwnie, your post has definitely got my attention.... We have just signed our 13 week old Lab into a local puppy preschool that starts in a few weeks, and I noticed you are from Newcastle too.... From the information you've given I'm starting to think it may be the same one we intend to go to. I know you probably don't want to name the school, but it would be great if you could update this post after your next class & let us know how it went. If you are still unhappy with them, I would love to know the details (in a private message of course), as I do not want to take Milo somewhere that is not well-structured or run appropriately. Thanks in advance :)

[Salukifan]

apocalypsepwnie, your post has definitely got my attention.... We have just signed our 13 week old Lab into a local puppy preschool that starts in a few weeks, and I noticed you are from Newcastle too.... From the information you've given I'm starting to think it may be the same one we intend to go to. I know you probably don't want to name the school, but it would be great if you could update this post after your next class & let us know how it went. If you are still unhappy with them, I would love to know the details (in a private message of course), as I do not want to take Milo somewhere that is not well-structured or run appropriately. Thanks in advance :)

I'd be taking a pup of this age directly to obedience training classes. I think he's a bit old for a vet pre-school.