Annoyed At Puppy Preschool

[apocalypsepwnie]

Last night we had week 2 of puppy preschool with Vinnie. There is 4 weeks. The class goes for 1.5 hours.

He is a healthy large 13kg at 13.5 weeks.

There are 8 in the class

Cavalier - ? 9 weeks

staffy - sammie 11 weeks

spaniel - louis 9 weeks

great dane - marty 13 weeks

'oodle - chilli 10 weeks

'oodle - barney 10 weeks

silky terrier - nelson 10 weeks

And vinnie the ambull 13.5 weeks

We are required to sit in chairs with pup at our feet on the mat. This is part of the training of course.

Last week when we were talking about vaccinations, they gave all the pups a pig's ear to nom. Last night however we sat for 45 minutes talking before the ears came out and there was 10 minutes of training for the pups.

Needless to say most of them were restless, except Louis who sleeps through everything.

My problem is Chilli and and Barney's owners.

Chilli's mum brings her two kids who are 8-10 years old. They just want to play with the puppies, talk through the entire thing and rile the dogs up. They also are the ones who hold the lead and encourage manipulative behaviours from their dog. I understand bringing kids to learn, as Sammie's parents bring their kids and they are wonderful at the same age, but don't if they are going to disrupt the class.

As the kids control Chilli they allow her to play with Barney.

Barney sits between Chilli and Vinnie on the right of me. He likes to bark and bite all the other dogs and lunge at them when he can't reach. At his totally vicious 2 kgs (we weigh in each week) his parents think it's amazingly hilarious.

This week, Vinnie cracked the shits at being attacked and lunged back. He'd copped it all last week, had a run in in the waiting room and had 45 minutes of annoyance. AFAIC he did pretty well for a pup. They laughed and said Vinnie was being naughty this week.

Ok so my 13kg dog has a lot more pulling power than yours so it may look like he is being naughty but you are allowing your dog to be aggressive, it looks like excitement aggression, and get away with it. My dog is defending himself and telling your dog to back off. At no stage did Vinnie bite, growl or bark.

My hands are also ripped to shreds from holding the lead and having to check him back the whole lesson. It was cruel on Vinnie and he was tired. I was ready to leave when we started obedience training.

I tried everything including picking him up and walking him around the back of the room. The instructors also tried coming over for distraction and giving him toys to play with. Every time he settled, Barney would go again.

Chilli then engaged in play with Barney instead of doing the revision commands we were asked to do. Vinnie couldn't understand why he couldn't play too and was not listening very well. I admit at this stage I was obviously frustrated and angry.

Marty then got the shits with the barking and carry on and started lunging past vinnie as he sits to the left. Vinnie LOVES marty. He thought he was trying to play and/or bark at him so he started to engage with marty. This then scared the already timid cavalier to the left of marty and he started crying. Marty went over to check him out and stepped on him, creating more havock.

By this time Sammie was barking at everyone. She's to the right of chilli. Chilli is using this excuse to steal her pigs ear. The parents let her.

Louis is asleep.

Nelson is also timid and is hiding under the chair.

This was far too much for all the dogs, even though I know part of the training is to concentrate past distraction.

Should I be 'that guy' and call the school and discuss with someone what happened or wait till next week and see how it goes?

I don't want Vinnie to have an adversion to dogs, particularly little ones, and I'd hate for Chilli and Barney to get munched because their owners were poorly educated.

[minimax]

Is an actual qualified trainer taking the class?

I'd be finding a new one, or at least moving to a corner of the room away from the other dogs if you have to stay there.

[Dame Aussie]

:laugh: not laughing at your frustration but your description.

A lot of puppy classes can be a bit of a free for all, do you think if you spoke to the organizer they would be receptive? They shouldn't be encouraging that type of behaviour (Barney's) just because he may be little.

Is the person running it qualified in any way?

I'd probably go next week and see how it goes but if it's still the same I'd probably find another class, or have a chat with the trainer.

I have some memories of our guys in puppy pre school, madness!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Aussie3

[Diva]

speak to the trainer before next week and not in front of anyone and say you find that the general level of chaos and the aggression from one of the pups is defeating the learning opportunity everyone is there for. Aren't there better ways to manage the space? Because you would love to be able to recommend the class to other people but so far you aren't finding it a very good environment for any of the pups.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Diva

[RiverStar-Aura]

It sounds like you're going to a typical vet run puppy school. I also would turn up extra early to next class and discuss the issues you're having with the instructor.

At least ask if you can sit away from the two main culprits. Is there a reason Vinnie has to sit next to Barney and Chilli?

I'd be inclined to sit near the spaniel who you said sleeps through everything. Also, 1.5 hours is a long time for a puppy to be awake and semi-concentrating!

[apocalypsepwnie]

It's at 6pm at night. They ask us not to feed them dinner so they are more receptive to treats. Vinnie usually eats at 6 even if we aren't home because of his automated feeder. By 6:45 he was pretty over it all.

I don't have to sit in that chair, everyone just seems to sit in the same spot. It's a horeshoe so they have put Nelson and the cavalier at the ends because they are timid. I like to sit near marty because he is REALLY calm. Last night was the first time he's reacted to the other pups, he is well trained and his parents are VERY good. They rescue large breed trauma and abuse dogs.

The trainers are certified. It's why we picked them.

I'll have to speak up or at least sit away from them. It's hard with a small class. I don't want to be near the two timid guys, Vinnie loves to be friendly and being the second largest dog in the class (by just a tad haha) and being 3-6 times bigger than most of them he scares the fur off them.

Yeah it was pretty insane at the end. I've learned all the pup's names but have no idea who the owners are BAHAHA. I want to steal Sammie and Louis. Sammie is brindle and just the cutest little doll.

[Leah82]

nawww louis. I'm picturing this :laugh:

[Loving my Oldies]

45 minutes of talking and expecting puppies to be quiet Crazy. I'd be talking to the trainer and investigating somewhere new.

Madness for sure, but controlled and directed madness :laugh: :laugh:

[Loving my Oldies]

At his totally vicious 2 kgs (we weigh in each week) his parents think it's amazingly hilarious.

This sort of indulgence really annoys me, too. I have a tiny little dog (3.5kg) who is very reactive and whenever I see dogs coming towards us when we are out walking, I will shorten her lead and distract her with treats. If that doesn't work and she "goes off her rocker", people always laugh their heads off. A couple of times over the years, I've said: you wouldn't be laughing if she was a Rottweiler or similar. They just don't get it.

That said, a trainer should get it and should be instructing the owners of the little dogs (and children) accordingly.

[Guest Ams]

Get there early and after talking to the person running the class, pick a different seat. If you sit in a different place everyone else has to as well. The trainer should actually advocate this as it allows the pups to interact with different ones during the session.

[persephone]

45 minutes of talking and expecting puppies to be quiet Crazy. I'd be talking to the trainer and investigating somewhere new.

Madness for sure, but controlled and directed madness :laugh: :laugh:

[alpha bet]

4 week course is a very basic puppy school (is this at a vets?) - obviously you are going to move on to something more interesting so perhaps it isn't worth rocking the boat.... just run with the last couple of weeks that you have already paid for and get whatever you can from it - you can use this time to source something better.... Don't be afraid to ask them also for further information on trainers or clubs within your area.

It is a shame they have you all sitting down, often this means you end up with some dogs cowering under the chair and others pushing to get to them.... limited space creates limited opportunity for these little dudes to move around and relax.

With our puppy groups we have them in a large area - no chairs (everyone stands up) and we also have some little puppy agility equipment so people start moving around and getting their pups to follow them and play games. This also reduces the focus on any puppy just targeting another pup.

When you look for something with more to offer, I suggest you look for puppy work that involves lots of different activities.... Good luck

[DeltaCharlie]

45 mins of talking is a lot of time to be waiting around for young dogs. I wouldn't expect my adults to wait patiently for that long. As for giving everyone a pig's ear? No way in hell would I be feeding any of my dogs a pigs ear once a week. I refuse to feed them any more than maybe half a pigs ear per year (if that). I also wouldn't want to be feeding mine something of value with other dogs so close by and not necessarily under control, great way to encourage resource guarding.

I wouldn't be happy with the situation if it was me and would probably look for another place. I wouldn't have the confidence to say anything to the instructor about why though, I'm too shy. Easier to walk away and find somewhere else. No guarantees that anywhere else will be any better though. I expect a bit of chaos at puppy school, after all not everyone knows about dog behaviour and for many people at puppy school its their first dog, but its the sitting around that I would be put off by.

[Simply Grand]

:laugh: not laughing at your frustration but your description.

I lol'd too at how you told the story :) It does sound like chaos!

speak to the trainer before next week and not in front of anyone and say you find that the general level of chaos and the aggression from one of the pups is defeating the learning opportunity everyone is there for. Aren't there better ways to manage the space? Because you would love to be able to recommend the class to other people but so far you aren't finding it a very good environment for any of the pups.

45 minutes of talking and expecting puppies to be quiet Crazy. I'd be talking to the trainer and investigating somewhere new.

Madness for sure, but controlled and directed madness :laugh: :laugh:

Get there early and after talking to the person running the class, pick a different seat. If you sit in a different place everyone else has to as well. The trainer should actually advocate this as it allows the pups to interact with different ones during the session.

Agree with all of the above.

[Simply Grand]

At his totally vicious 2 kgs (we weigh in each week) his parents think it's amazingly hilarious.

This sort of indulgence really annoys me, too. I have a tiny little dog (3.5kg) who is very reactive and whenever I see dogs coming towards us when we are out walking, I will shorten her lead and distract her with treats. If that doesn't work and she "goes off her rocker", people always laugh their heads off. A couple of times over the years, I've said: you wouldn't be laughing if she was a Rottweiler or similar. They just don't get it.

That said, a trainer should get it and should be instructing the owners of the little dogs (and children) accordingly.

People do it with Riley too (7kg Sheltie), he can be reactive with younger dogs no matter what size they are and people always thinks its funny that he's going off at their large puppy

[Staff'n'Toller]

My classes are 45 mins total and often that is too much, i.e. you can see the dogs getting tired.

Pigs ears are a great way to encourage resource guarding when other pups are in close proximity.

The class should be (training) exercise/break/exercise/break.

I would expect for 8 pups the room should be massive. Why not do 2 classes of 4 and 4? How is anyone getting any value out of it??!! The yappy pups are not comfortable in their allocated space and sound as though they need more room. The kids also create an unacceptable risk and the trainers should hope their insurance is paid up if they are allowing the kids to approach unknown dogs- it doesn't matter that they are only pups.

Your dog is learning to lunge on the lead, not settle what else is being learnt that you'll have to 'fix' later?

I would give them feedback via email regardless of whether you complete the course or not. They obviously need to see it from a client's perspective.

[dididog]

We just finished a puppy pre school similar to yours last saturday and it was a similar size class sitting in a horse shoe shape although we never sat next to the same people week after week. I wasn't a massive fan of sitting down though we spent less time talking and it was broken up with 2, five minute plays when the pups were getting too restless and we would then spend the last 15 minutes of the hour going over the new command.

I can relate, having a Dane cross baby she was the biggest though the most friendly puppy in the class and played really well with the other pups (laid on her side and let the little ones approach) but there was one puppy in the class, a Havanese (who started at 16 weeks which makes me think his owners didn't do anything with him until his final shots) and he was fear aggressive to all the puppies even ones smaller than him. Of course the owners would do what they were told not to on the first lesson and cuddle him when he growled/snapped and let him roam half way across the room on their extendable leash (again first lesson told not to do.)

I would say talk to the instructor and only leave if you really feel like you are not benefiting from the class or it is effecting Vinnie negatively. To be honest I only went every week because all the puppies in our class were small and I wanted Didi to learn to play nicely with smaller dogs as well as focus on me in a distracting environment. The 30 mins of talking were often things I already knew or disagreed with slightly so it's really up to you whether you want to change or not although I found that this time of year a lot of people get puppies and finding a placement especially on short notice was hard.

The most concerning thing for me is that two children are being allowed to act like that. You're paying for this service and you'd be pissed off if an adult behaved that way so there's no reason children should as well. Of course it is good for them to learn but I think at least when you are sitting down the mother should control the puppy instead. Im sure if you expressed your concerns the instructor could just say at the start of the class that things got a bit out of control last week and to try and keep pups under control a bit better (and maybe hint to the mother she should control Chilli instead).

It's not a very ideal set up for puppy class, Didi would lie on her side and try to swim around on the slippery floor most of the time as she got bored. One class we had a replacement instructor who seemed a bit uninformed and let the pups play with toys to stop them getting bored which as I feared brought out resource guarding behaviour in the German Shepherd pup who snapped and growled at Didi when she moved too close so I can only imagine the potential dangers of all the puppies having a high value item like pigs ears.

[apocalypsepwnie]

I was worried about resource guarding however Vinnie is quite happy to share. He doesn't do anything if another pup comes near his food or us for that matter. He just sits and waits for it to be returned and if it doesn't he goes off to something else.

I'm really proud of my puppah, these aren't things I've taught him but he just does. I treat and praise when he does hoping he continues to do them.

He's also good with other dogs as I've mentioned before elsewhere. I trust him to let me and the other dog know that it's not ok so I can step in. I ended up putting my leg between them and keeping Vinnie on my side.

Lol, Vinnie was swimming around on the floor too.

I fear that the other people in the class regard Vinnie and Marty as scary. I know that Sammie's owners don't, as she is a staffy albeit small, they allow her to play with our dogs with no issue but are quite quick to pull them from the small dogs when they play up.

The rest of them pull their dogs away from them in the waiting room, other than Barney, and find Vinnie to be the class clown. They are all amazed that Marty is so well behaved and can do all the commands without treats. Vinnie can too thankyou!

Vinnie has never lunged on the lead before. That was horrible. It sent my treat dish flying. When we walked out of the vets and waited for our lift home, he sat for the 20 minutes without a sound and watched all the other dogs leave including Barney with not a single sound.

The first session was much much better. We did a few commands right up, talked a bit while engaging our dogs, did some more commands then talked while they had a pig's ear to chill out.

I think I might start coming prepared with my own bag of tricks to distract him. Because I know that it's designed to help them be calm and not be distracted, if I can have tools to help him focus on me and his own business I'm a step ahead. I already have two toys that he would give his life for.

The trainer tries, she says things like 'I'm not going to talk over everyone' when things are getting insane and I know she doesn't want to upset people. They also use the positive approach so 'correcting' is not quite what they teach it's more of a positive distraction. I've been tutted by Barney and Chilli's parents for using a slip lead (I know this might get me flamed but I use some of cesar millan's techniques) because I found walking on a harness or using a collar to not have as much control and vinnie tried to paw them off. He took to the slip straight up. Even though the trainer explained the difference between slips and choke chains, I'm still a cruel person apparently. I also get tutted for correcting Vinnie with the tsst and tap to the underarm. He responds well to that.

Ok so we are in a class that teaches positive reinforcement which I do but when my dog is head down into something that I can't get him out of by calling his name and giving alternate commands, I'm going to correct him. If that is a light tug on the slip or a tsst I will.

[apocalypsepwnie]

I think I'm just very vigilant with my dog because I know how quickly things can get out of control with a large and bull breed.

I'm being treated for extreme servere anxiety disorder so tend to observe situations quite thoroughly before reacting so imagine me sitting there like I was watching this all unfold on tv like I wasn't even there.

Vinnie looks to me for instruction most of the time so through all this, when he wasn't trying to get around, him staring at me with that big idiot head of him while each individual dog did his own thing. I think he was just as overwhelmed as I was.

I'm hoping this was a once off so we'll go next week prepared and work on commands in distractions this week. If it happens again I'll leave and not come back.

We certainly intend on continuing his training in a formal setting.

[Dame Aussie]

It's funny, I have an Anatolian x and as a puppy he was massive. At first everyone at pre school was worried about his size but by the end they all loved him.

He was much more gentle and polite than any of the little dogs and he would even hide between my legs when they charged over wanting to play :laugh: