What Can Cause A Whole Litter To Be Born Dead?

[sheena]

Just wondering...if the bitch has some problem where she can't deliver pups at full term & need to have a caesar should that bitch be being used for breeding I guess it may be different if it is a rare breed or if ALL pups are sold on the limited register & never bred from.

[GABBA]

Sheena, you raise a legitimate point. During our discussions the topic of neutering came up. So unless they can find out what happened, that may be the action taken. Personally, I think, if the bitch requires a caesar to have the pups, you wouldn't want to do it more than once, maybe twice at the absolute most. I wouldn't want to put her through it - but thats me, and I may be wrong.

[Steve]

This can be caused by so many things that it would take a month to discuss them all and you still wouldnt know . Fact is you dont know what caused it and until she tries again you wont know if it was a one off thing caused by a virus, or medication or bacteria , inertia.

If she has another litter - dont give her heartworm meds , dont give her vaccinations, dont give her any meds at all. One week before she is due to whelp start taking her temp and the minute it drops to 36.5 degrees or under if she hasn't whelped in 24 hours take her to the vet. If it goes wrong again then you know you have a problem with the bitch.

[Sandra777]

Sorry there were no real answers

I would agree 100% with Sheena about breeding from a bitch who can't carry pups to term but if they choose to mate this bitch again perhaps they need to prog test at the time of mating so they know absolutely when she ovulates so can calculate the true due date, then perhaps prog test during the pregnancy as advised by their vet (specialist job this one IMO). IF it turns out she actually has a problem then they can deal with it, get live pups and then (what I would do, their choice though) discontinue the line.

If she has no issues they can move forward knowing that it wasn't something like hormone levels that caused it but "something else" and perhaps they will never know what it was, but that's one of the bad parts of breeding.

Sometimes there are no answers, mother nature can be a right bitch some days.

[oakway]

Hi everyone. I have spoken to my mentor and she has since had a necropsy performed on the puppy - the results are really of no use. From what I gather, the vet was unable to find any indications of congenital issues or any signs of prenatal sepsis. One possibility was that the placenta had detached only a few days before the actual labour. But I always though that there would be indications of this occurring? A discharge, stress, or something along those lines, but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, the puppys were very developed, so its almost as if their is an issue with the mother, not being able to bring the puppys to full term.

One exercise that MAY be worth doing is an elective caesar, where the aim would be to deliver the pups while they are still alive. There were no problems during the actual labour, but the caesar would be used to retrieve them a few days before she is due. There would be a lot of ultrasounds required during this process to make sure the puppies are as close to the actual due date as possible. The downside of this of course, is subjecting her bitch to a caesar. It is a routine surgery, but at the end of the day, its still surgery.

Anyway, thoughts, opinions, comments???

Thanks.

Sorry to hear this, breeding can be a real bitch. I would like to point out that ultra sounds don't determine the whelping time Progesterone test do.

[kelpiecuddles]

I agree with what Steve said. If the results of the tests have been inconclusive then you don't know what caused it. It may even have been something to do with the vac even though the vet felt it would be fine. Until the bitch is bred again you won't know whether it was a one off or an ongoing issue.

[Erny]

I agree with what Steve said. If the results of the tests have been inconclusive then you don't know what caused it. It may even have been something to do with the vac even though the vet felt it would be fine. Until the bitch is bred again you won't know whether it was a one off or an ongoing issue.

What Steve said and this ^^ makes the most sense to me. Try once again (no use throwing the baby out with the bath water) avoiding chemicals directly before, during and after to at least rule that out as the cause, rather than instantly assuming there's something wrong with the bitch.

The owners could titre if they want to be assured that their bitch has immunity. A "zero" titre result does not necessarily mean no immunity where immunity has been proven before, but if there is a count evidenced, at least they can relax.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Erny

[Steve]

Here's my story. Many years ago we had a big scare with a snowy owl which attacked one of our bitches and killed two of her puppies @4 weeks of age. So we paid out stacks of money and put a massive roof in over half of our yard to stop the owls. What we didnt know was that the wire enabled the possums to run across the roof of the roofed area and poop.We never saw any poop because it turned out the dogs loved it and were eating it like popcorn. One after the other I had three bitches - different lines and different stud dogs who all aborted close to whelp date. Two of these girls had whelped without a problem previously . We did heaps of tests and couldn't find an answer - we were told if it was a bug or virus etc that the dogs would be immune to what ever it was and we probably wouldn't see it again . We scrubbed and rubbed germs and locked the dogs out of that area while it as being sterilised in case it was something that may be catchy - that's when we saw the possum poop because there had been no dogs in that area to snack on it. We were told it wasnt the possum as possums didnt carry anything that would hurt the dogs.

Anyway just because when crap like that happens you look for something to blame and tend to grab at what you think is the cause we blamed the possum. So not that long after that I was speaking with a breeder friend from the USA who was lamenting that she didnt know what was going on because her bitches were losing their pups close to delivery we talked and thought and talked a lot - how could it be that she was describing what I had when she didnt have possums and we lived i different countries - long story short and stacks of research it turned out that we had both given our girls the same heart worm meds - same drug different brand name. Id given mine out because my vet had recommended I do that -she had simply decided to do so as she was concerned about heart worm. When you look hard at the science on the drug and not the crap put out by the companies that make the heartworm meds you see that its lucky if you give these meds out to a pregnant bitch and don't see problems you should feel lucky. I got pretty mad at the vet and asked myself why she didnt know the possible risks to pregnant animals then saw she went on the label and not the data of the drug.

Ive never trusted anything a vet has prescribed since then and I double check everything. Never allow a pregnant animal or soon to be pregnant to be exposed to chemicals internal or external and dont be afraid to challenge any vet that wants to do otherwise.

Since then Ive heard of several cases where the common denominator is heart worm meds - no proof tests inconclusive but one of the questions Id be asking this breeder is when did your bitch last have heart worm meds.

Who knows? Was it the possum was it the heat worm med or some other virus or bug - was it the food, the water, the weather was it stress was it the crop duster last year or the neighbour spraying his weeds? The only thing I know for sure is my girls are protected as much as I can from exposure to chemicals of any description inside and out.

In the mean time in any science field in any experiment or study you have to be able to replicate the results - no one can say if its the bitch in this case so you have to let her go again in my opinion. All of my girls produced healthy happy litters after that one time and Ive never had an issue since.

[dancinbcs]

Hi everyone. I have spoken to my mentor and she has since had a necropsy performed on the puppy - the results are really of no use. From what I gather, the vet was unable to find any indications of congenital issues or any signs of prenatal sepsis. One possibility was that the placenta had detached only a few days before the actual labour. But I always though that there would be indications of this occurring? A discharge, stress, or something along those lines, but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, the puppys were very developed, so its almost as if their is an issue with the mother, not being able to bring the puppys to full term.

One exercise that MAY be worth doing is an elective caesar, where the aim would be to deliver the pups while they are still alive. There were no problems during the actual labour, but the caesar would be used to retrieve them a few days before she is due. There would be a lot of ultrasounds required during this process to make sure the puppies are as close to the actual due date as possible. The downside of this of course, is subjecting her bitch to a caesar. It is a routine surgery, but at the end of the day, its still surgery.

Anyway, thoughts, opinions, comments???

Thanks.

I would mate her again to a dog from a completely different line and check her progesterone levels to determine the exact day of ovulation. Avoid all chemicals. Prog test each week during the pregnancy. 58 days post ovulation, prog test her every day until the level drops. If she hasn't whelped within 24 hours, do the caesar or do an elective caesar as soon as the prog level drops, just to be sure the puppies survive. Of course then they won't know if she would have gone into labour on her own. It could also be worth checking her thyroid level before she is mated. A friend had just had a healthy litter on the 4th attempt with her girl after the vet supplemented her for thyroid. Problem bitches do not always pass on the problems to their offspring so it is worth trying the next generation. If it happens again, that is the time you stop breeding that line.