GABBA Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Hi all. I am starting this thread with a heavy heart. My mentor (with over 13 years experience) faced an absolute nightmare the other night. Her bitch delivered 5 full-term, fully developed pups - all dead. From what I know, the delivery seemed normal enough, no excessive stress on the bitch, no prolonged periods between pups. The bitch recently had her yearly immunisation (inactive immunisation). She is having a vet perform an autopsy on one of the pups to shed some light but needless to say she is rattled. I have heard of one or two pups being stillborn - but a whole litter!!!??? Has anyone heard of this?! What could it be? I won't elaborate too much on the breed (as to keep her privacy), but she breeds larger dogs. And as a side note, for those that think breeding is a good idea - this is EXACTLY why it isn't!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 E coli ? Ive also seen this three or four times with heartworm meds given to a pregnant bitch . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 These are the stories that every breeder dreads.... can only be worse if you end up loosing the bitch.... my heart really goes out to your mentor. It is these facts that anyone (BYB or newbie) interested in breeding has to consider before embarking on this venture... Easy for outsiders to look at what breeders charge for puppies and think "Wow Chaching" ... but the reality is no where near as rosy - at times there are heartaches and stress, let alone the financials costs... GABBA please ask your friend to share the results of the autopsy.... she can remain anonymous.... but there are many of us here who would love to know more.... breeding is a constant learning curve.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sorry to hear this, but yes of course whole litters can die if the bitch goes into uterine inertia. If the owner didn’t realise it and didn’t get a c section done immediately there is every chance the whole litter could die. Also, one does not vaccinate pregnant bitches. The bitches progesterone levels may have been way out. I suppose many of us could give plenty of reasons why it happens. Its one of the saddest thing we have to face as breeders and it never gets easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Could the bitch have possibly been in labour silently without the breeder realising. I once assisted a C-section for a bitch for 4 dead puppies, vet estimated the bitch had been in labour for a couple of days already but combination of a few things including the breed(prone to looking fairly 'laboured' anyway), the breeder had missed the signs and the pups had died before the c-section was able to be conducted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Hereditary combination of fatal genes would have to be considered if no other obvious cause if found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Herpes virus (CHV-1) perhaps Vaccinating a pregnant bitch with anything is not generally recommended So sorry to hear your mentor went through this. Heartbreaking. Edited February 10, 2014 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Wouldn't blame the vaccination, but wow, who would take that risk? Never EVER vaccinate a pregnant bitch was the advice I was given by a specialist vet many years ago and nothing I have seen or heard since has suggested otherwise. Canine Herpes seems pretty likely to me - or early separation of the placentas due to hormone drop or some sort of stress (doesn't have to be anything the owner would consider "stress", dogs can be very weird some times) Heartbreaking for all, are they considering getting the bitch some foster pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 No ideas, just deepest sympathies. The breeder must in such shock and sorrow. Wonder how the bitch is faring as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Uterine inertia, infection, a genetic issue, heat, stress... lots of options. What a tragedy for your friend. I hope at least that the necropsy brings answers. Edited February 11, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GABBA Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thank you all for your kind words as well as suggestions on what it could be. As you can imagine she is torn up and time is the only way this particular wound will heal. I believe the pup is with the vet so once there is some news I will let you all know. I spoke with a vet (for my own learning) and he believes an inactive vaccination shouldn't have posed any risk. I understand no vaccination is the best option, but if the bitch is due for her shot it's somthing that must be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I understand no vaccination is the best option, but if the bitch is due for her shot it's somthing that must be done. it can be done before she is mated- or after pups .. it does not need to be done the exact day/week/month written on the records.... I hope all ends well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Was there any chance that the litter could have been born later than 63 days post ovulation? In many breeds it is not ok to go over by even a day or you can lose the whole litter. This is why we prog test now so you have an exact due date and if they are not showing signs of labour by that date, intervention may be needed. I have a breed that usually whelp up to 4 days early but if they go over it is nearly always a problem that needs a caesar to get the puppies out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I understand no vaccination is the best option, but if the bitch is due for her shot it's somthing that must be done. Honestly? No. Months "late" is fine with an adult. And if the breeder choses to be utterly pedantic about annual vaccinations (which is something no longer supported by the science) than this needs to be taken care of before the bitch is mated. Chances are the vaccination had nothing to do with what happened, reactions and problems are pretty rare but always better safe than sorry with a pregnant bitch. Hope the autopsy gives some clear answers so they can move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 All what has been said I hope is helpful. I would just like to add that many breeders now only do puppy vaccinations then titre at a later date. Many of our dogs may never receive another dose of vaccine and what's more it is working for many of us as long as the titre comes back successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thank you all for your kind words as well as suggestions on what it could be. As you can imagine she is torn up and time is the only way this particular wound will heal. I believe the pup is with the vet so once there is some news I will let you all know. I spoke with a vet (for my own learning) and he believes an inactive vaccination shouldn't have posed any risk. I understand no vaccination is the best option, but if the bitch is due for her shot it's somthing that must be done. Repo vets wont agree nor will old style vets . We made the crucial mistake of vaccinating a bitch before mating as the stud owner asked for it many many years ago ,we learned a very hard lesson & would never ever do it again . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 The vaccination didn't really have to be done just because she was due, immunity usually persists past the booster due date. Vaccination of a pregnant bitch is not recommended by any vet I have discussed it with, far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 To quote Jean Dodds DVM - who for anyone who is unaware is the guru of vaccination "I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation." Think it is pretty clear and it is surprising the number of vets who seem ignorant of this fact...... Only last month when a friend took her dog for AI the vet nurse kept stating that the bitch was due her annual vaccination..... She ended up ringing me to clarify the recommendations and then took some firm words for the vet nurse to just shut up and accept...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GABBA Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 Hi everyone. I have spoken to my mentor and she has since had a necropsy performed on the puppy - the results are really of no use. From what I gather, the vet was unable to find any indications of congenital issues or any signs of prenatal sepsis. One possibility was that the placenta had detached only a few days before the actual labour. But I always though that there would be indications of this occurring? A discharge, stress, or something along those lines, but I could be wrong. As I mentioned earlier, the puppys were very developed, so its almost as if their is an issue with the mother, not being able to bring the puppys to full term. One exercise that MAY be worth doing is an elective caesar, where the aim would be to deliver the pups while they are still alive. There were no problems during the actual labour, but the caesar would be used to retrieve them a few days before she is due. There would be a lot of ultrasounds required during this process to make sure the puppies are as close to the actual due date as possible. The downside of this of course, is subjecting her bitch to a caesar. It is a routine surgery, but at the end of the day, its still surgery. Anyway, thoughts, opinions, comments??? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Sorry results were inconclusive - that doesn't make it any easier, does it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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