BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 OK so just out of curiosity, would you feel differently if this animal was called giraffe #7 and had been bred for the explicit purpose of providing meat for the zoo's carnivores and everybody was told this from the beginning and perhaps he was killed behind a curtain like the racehorses if they fatally break down on the track? I am honestly trying to understand the issue some people are having. Fortunately we all get to prattle on about our questions and opinions as much as we like as long as we manage to stay objective, which some people seem to lack the maturity to do with this topic :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) So now I am immature because I don't agree with your opinion. Since when does anyone HAVE to agree with someone else's opinion? It is an opinion after all. If giraffe's were raised as a food animal, euthed and butchered 'out the back' I would have far less issue with it, as I have said many times I have no issues with euthing and feeding out, just not the public spectacle. I am honestly having difficulty with the fact you are so much of the opinion that only yours is the correct one that you cannot see that some people do not agree with how things were carried out and why even after people have tried to explain it politely as they possibly can, you still don't get it in the slightest. These are peoples opinions there is no yes or no answer. Edited February 12, 2014 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) You keep using the cows/sheep argument. Those animals are bred for eating and there is no risk of them becoming an extinct species. Ok so they somehow deserve to be killed but Marius didn't.. Obviously there were enough of his genes available already in other animals or he would not have been culled. ETA: Corrected to remove false information after doing more reading :) Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) No I was addressing Rebanne who felt it was necessary to use words like "prattling" since they apparently lack the words to properly express themselves. Everybody is free to disagree of course. I don't mind. I guess we better stop all public education that involves death then, including anatomy classes, taxidermy workshops, home butchery seminars, perhaps even skeletons in museums etc since any and all members of the public can turn up to those and bring popcorn and chips :) Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 As I have said before - more than once, seems some choose only to remember what they wish too. I have no issue with biology classes, butchering classes - if there is such a thing. But really I am sick of it now. You choose to take the odd bit here and there and then try to fabricate crap that we are all thinking when we are not - or at least I am not. I have said my bit, repeatedly, more than once. It seems you have a problem with comprehension. I have no desire to repeat it again for those that seem to have a memory retention problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Any way no point in arguing this nothing that is said and no amount of logic is going to change how I feel about this - even if I cant really understand why I feel like this . I actually feel very similarly to you. I am not really trying to argue a point and I see nothing wrong in asking difficult questions, I actually think it is necessary sometimes. Personally, as I said before, I don't really agree with the whole zoo concept and I actually felt pretty strongly (in a negative way) about this story when I first read about it. However, after thinking about it I could not really find any logical reason to fault the zoo for their actions. I guess I am kind of asking questions to see if anybody has reasonable arguments to either legitimize or refute my own opinion. Nobody has to feel or think the same way I do but by getting to read lots of other people's opinions I actually feel like my understanding is being enhanced, both of the logical and the emotional issue. I am not trying to convince anybody that this is the way all zoos should do things or that this is the best idea since sliced bread, I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind why this is not ok but other things are. Some people seem to be getting a little miffed because they cannot really explain their feelings. I don't think there is anything wrong with not being able to explain feelings, that is, after-all the nature of feelings, no need to get all irritated. I guess some people perhaps don't really want to think about difficult questions of ethics, and that is fine, too. I guess I kind of feel like I do things that other people might find questionable on ethical grounds and so do other people and I am trying to find some answers. Why are certain things ok, but others aren't, when there is only a marginal difference in circumstance. Where and how do people draw a line? Why is t not ok to question this? Not sure if I am doing a good job explaining this at all, I guess it's late and we've probably all had a long day. Nobody is forced to participate in this discussion and everybody is free to leave any time they like of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 No I was addressing Rebanne who felt it was necessary to use words like "prattling" since they apparently lack the words to properly express themselves. Everybody is free to disagree of course. I don't mind. I guess we better stop all public education that involves death then, including anatomy classes, taxidermy workshops, home butchery seminars, perhaps even skeletons in museums etc since any and all members of the public can turn up to those and bring popcorn and chips :) being rude and personal again. Need another DOLiday do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 As I have said before - more than once, seems some choose only to remember what they wish too. I have no issue with biology classes, butchering classes - if there is such a thing. But really I am sick of it now. You choose to take the odd bit here and there and then try to fabricate crap that we are all thinking when we are not - or at least I am not. I have said my bit, repeatedly, more than once. It seems you have a problem with comprehension. I have no desire to repeat it again for those that seem to have a memory retention problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) . Edited February 12, 2014 by Kirislin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Any way no point in arguing this nothing that is said and no amount of logic is going to change how I feel about this - even if I cant really understand why I feel like this . I actually feel very similarly to you. I am not really trying to argue a point and I see nothing wrong in asking difficult questions, I actually think it is necessary sometimes. Personally, as I said before, I don't really agree with the whole zoo concept and I actually felt pretty strongly (in a negative way) about this story when I first read about it. However, after thinking about it I could not really find any logical reason to fault the zoo for their actions. I guess I am kind of asking questions to see if anybody has reasonable arguments to either legitimize or refute my own opinion. Nobody has to feel or think the same way I do but by getting to read lots of other people's opinions I actually feel like my understanding is being enhanced, both of the logical and the emotional issue. I am not trying to convince anybody that this is the way all zoos should do things or that this is the best idea since sliced bread, I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind why this is not ok but other things are. Some people seem to be getting a little miffed because they cannot really explain their feelings. I don't think there is anything wrong with not being able to explain feelings, that is, after-all the nature of feelings, no need to get all irritated. I guess some people perhaps don't really want to think about difficult questions of ethics, and that is fine, too. I guess I kind of feel like I do things that other people might find questionable on ethical grounds and so do other people and I am trying to find some answers. Why are certain things ok, but others aren't, when there is only a marginal difference in circumstance. Where and how do people draw a line? Why is t not ok to question this? Not sure if I am doing a good job explaining this at all, I guess it's late and we've probably all had a long day. Nobody is forced to participate in this discussion and everybody is free to leave any time they like of course. I'm reminded of the Vulcan vs everyone else debates on Star Trek (I usually side with the Vulcan). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 If Marius' genetics were surplus to requirement, then it may also follow that if he were female the same may be the case... in that circumstance neither parent should have been bred together in the first place. Basically, if you don't have the room for surplus stock, then maybe you should be separating those who will produce that stock if they happen to mate successfully. Taronga Zoo has released 2 media statements this week in response to being asked what they do in cases like this... http://taronga.org.au/news/2014-02-10/taronga-statement-euthanasia http://taronga.org.au/news/2014-02-12/taronga-statement ... in effect they endeavour to make sure that it happens extremely rarely, and that they seek other alternatives for the animals not needed in their breeding programs if they should happen to be born. Let's face it... zoos are NOT a natural environment for any animal - and to allow populations of animals to procreate willy-nilly regardless of the need for offspring is simply not best practice if your efforts in that area are supposedly aimed at sustaining/maintaining a population of exotic animals that may be getting very scarce in the wild. I really don't have any problem with surplus stock being used to feed other zoo animals... but I DO have a problem with how/why this particular surplus stock issue came about, and was then handled by this zoo. I also feel strongly for the keepers who have raised and cared for Marius for the past 18 months - this would not have been easy for them at all. I have a few zookeeper friends and acquaintances, and I know how traumatised they can get if any of their charges passes away... this situation would be the worst nightmare come true for the keepers. It's not a case of comparing Marius to cattle (cows, sheep, etc) that are intentionally bred to be food. Generally cattle are not named, used as a drawcard for people to spend money to come and watch grow up, or slaughtered in a public manner. I'm sure that Marius wasn't initially conceived in order to be meat for the other animals - it just turned out that this was determined to be his fate once it was decided that he was surplus to the zoo's needs. It does set a precedent though... and I do worry that his case won't be the last of it's kind... in fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't the first to suffer this fate either. It seems like they are testing the waters for public response to this use for surplus stock - because their "breeding program" is so successful, and allowing contraception (or separating males and females) seems to be out of the question due to some unfathomable "rule" they choose to follow in their keeping/breeding practices. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 You don't have to describe feelings to have them. You can be passionate about something, don't try to patronize people. If I went to the zoo and saw this id be pretty upset. My issue is that he got to his age and was never wanted anyway. Human error that should never happened and a young healthy giraffe paid the price. I get upset about young healthy dogs being euth'd because of humans dumping them in pounds also. He is an exotic animal, he was a healhy baby, he had other options, the whole situation disgusts me and no amount of trying to reason about zoo practice will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I find it disgusting as well. I think the whole "spectacle" aspect of it is what disgusts me most - as if there was no respect paid to the animal at all, even though he had been raised along with the others and - presumably - regarded with some affection by his attendants (you would hope they have some feeling for their charges anyway). Yes, you can regard it clinically - that is the reality that carcasses are fed to the animals - but I think the natural reaction to this incident is to find it repellant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 being rude and personal again. Need another DOLiday do you? Didn't have one in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 OK so just out of curiosity, would you feel differently if this animal was called giraffe #7 and had been bred for the explicit purpose of providing meat for the zoo's carnivores and everybody was told this from the beginning and perhaps he was killed behind a curtain like the racehorses if they fatally break down on the track? I am honestly trying to understand the issue some people are having. Fortunately we all get to prattle on about our questions and opinions as much as we like as long as we manage to stay objective, which some people seem to lack the maturity to do with this topic :laugh: BJ, I actually agree with most of what you are saying - but a little empathy for those that are not as objective goes a long way to getting your point across. Laughing at peoples emotions This is an animal we are talking about (on a dog forum, full of animal lovers).. How could a conversation about an animal being killed (when he could have been rehomed), chopped up (in public) and fed to lions, ever be objective? There are so many emotions out on display in this thread - it can't ever be objective when emotions are in play.. So many, like myself, see this animal in a way that is different to those that can see it as fodder for the lions, excess to requirements etc.. The clinical side of it.. It is hard for some to separate emotions from the necessity to maintain the status quo in the breeding cycle of zoos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You don't have to describe feelings to have them. You can be passionate about something, don't try to patronize people. If I went to the zoo and saw this id be pretty upset. My issue is that he got to his age and was never wanted anyway. Human error that should never happened and a young healthy giraffe paid the price. I get upset about young healthy dogs being euth'd because of humans dumping them in pounds also. He is an exotic animal, he was a healhy baby, he had other options, the whole situation disgusts me and no amount of trying to reason about zoo practice will change that. I agree that it's a real shame that he had to be pts, or that they won't use some form of contraception to prevent the animals producing offspring that are never wanted. I just don't feel that because it was done publicly meant that it was a spectacle or a circus, or that doing it that way made any difference to the giraffe at all. Nor do I feel that the people who watched were a cohort of callous individuals only there to see a gory show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Seems like a less than cost effective means of feeding the carnivores. I would have thought a couple of old cancer eye cows would have been better. I believe I have seen research which suggests that children below a certain age can be traumatised by seeing violence, or the slaughter of animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And they're in the news again for euthanising cubs and an adult lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinabean Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 And they're in the news again for euthanising cubs and an adult lion. I just read that in the news this morning. 'The four lions were put down on Monday after the zoo failed to find a new home for them.' They don't seem to be very good at finding new homes for any of their animals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now