Inbreeding Rules Kill Giraffe

[Lhok]

Maybe the Tsavo lions aren't kept in zoos because they have a man eating reputation.. Either way I would love to see them.

--Lhok

[JulesP]

I think it was wrong that they killed him in the first place. What they did after doesn't bother me so much. The zoo have said that they have dissected a number of animals in public.

Breeding an animal that you don't need and then killing it is just dodgy breeding.

[kelpiecuddles]

I don't know. I find that question very interesting, and also what somebody else mentioned before, that some zoo staff would like to feed whole carcasses but won't due to the public reaction

I use to have to skin chicken carcasses to remove the feathers before cutting them up for the crocs at work so that they didn't 'look like chickens' because people get all squeamish if there is the suggestion that a piece of chicken meat may once have been a real, live chicken I'm pretty sure some people do think meat grows in plastic trays with cling wrap over it!

[Steve]

Yeah well I dont think meat comes in plastic trays and I can still drop a Roo from 300 metres away right between the eyes - if I have to shoot a sheep I dont call in the towns folk to watch me do it - I do all I can to do it quietly -out of sight because its not something I like to do and its not something I would like to watch someone else do. The idea that someone would think its no big deal for me to do that is disgusting because killing a living being should not be trivialised and in my opinion it shouldalways be seen to be a major deal. If someone said to me "Oh good can I come and watch you kill a sheep and cut it up and feed it to the dogs" - Id think there was something a bit wrong with them and I simply don't think it should be part of the zoo experience in front of a public audience. Im not saying Im upset about the thing being eaten with people watching - just dont agree with the entire process being presented the way it was.

[kelpiecuddles]

I wasn't having a go at you or any others who had that take on it Steve, simply responding to the statement that zoos can't feed whole carcasses. There's great value in feeding whole carcasses to captive carnivores and not just from a nutritional perspective but it's something that generally isn't done. We gave a whole roo to the dingoes once where I worked and had to give it to them at closing and remove it before opening because the idea freaks out the customers. (It was hit by a car and killed, not killed by us)

Edited February 12, 2014 by kelpiecuddles

[BlackJaq]

Personally I am happy when somebody asks to be there and watch as we kill and butcher an animal for our and their consumption. Obviously I am not allowed to sell them any of the meat as it wasn't killed in an approved abattoir, but as far as I know there is no reason they cannot eat some of it while dining with us at our place.

A lot of people have never seen it done and they are interested, but do not have the opportunity to see it done elsewhere. I guess there are videos of it on youtube, but if somebody is going to learn to hunt for example, I prefer to show them in person rather than letting them learn by watching videos and "learning by doing". I am going to a taxidermy workshop this weekend. The animals will already be dead, but that is more of a matter of circumstance than preference because it is easier to freeze the animal when it is available, rather than trying to find one on the day. It will also be a big public spectacle. Is that wrong, too? We will be working on a goat and a pig btw but if we had a zebra or a giraffe I bet we would use that instead.

There is nothing wrong in my opinion with showing people who eat meat and use animal products what happens to the animals and where those products come from. If you never show people they will only get more estranged and that is how factory housing and mass slaughter came about in the first place. In times long gone, everybody would have a smoke house and when somebody killed an animal people would buy part of the animal to take home and smoke or whatever. There is nothing unnatural or disrespectful about it, in my personal opinion. It is not something to be hidden away and kept secret. It is part of life (or should be) for anybody who eats meat. You don't need to enjoy killing an animal to feel the need to educate people about death, meat, butchering and whatnot.

Only if the animal is not used after it is being killed do I feel the kill is disrespectful. If you are going to bury it or throw it away to rot then yes, that is disrespectful in my opinion.

Animals eating other animals is also very natural and I don't understand why this should not be part of the zoo experience? Should animals be hidden away when they go to the toilet or when they tend their young as well? Some people already feel that public breast feeding should not be allowed and that it needs to be kept out of sight. Same with disciplining children in whatever manner. Dogs should be kept away from the public, too. Aren't there enough things being hidden from "the public" already?

Anyway, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq

[Steve]

I wasn't having a go at you or any others who had that take on it Steve, simply responding to the statement that zoos can't feed whole carcasses. There's great value in feeding whole carcasses to captive carnivores and not just from a nutritional perspective but it's something that generally isn't done. We gave a whole roo to the dingoes once where I worked and had to give it to them at closing and remove it before opening because the idea freaks out the customers. (It was hit by a car and killed, not killed by us)

I knew you werent having a go at me and I sort of feel that my reaction to it all is rather emotional and unrealistic but its how I feel about it .

Having a show put on killing and cutting up and serving the animal which has been known to those who visited and saw it as a living creature just makes me feel its a rather insensitive to those who had seen this animal as part of the zoo experience walking and moving around etc.

There is a big difference between having an already dead chicken thrown to a croc or a lamb shank fed to a dog or even seeing the croc kill its own food because its an animal and not supposed to give a shit but as humans I feel we should consider taking the life of a living creature something that's done with some kind of empathy and sorrow - as a necessary evil - not as a basis for some side show. Its sick.

[Cody]

One article I read mentioned that all offers came from zoos who do not operate under the same strict guidelines as this zoo and there was apparently some concern that an animal going to such a zoo might end up in a private collection.

I am not intimate with conditions in private collections around Europe but I know some Eastern European zoos are a disgrace. Nothing is stopping a non member zoo from selling this animal on to another non member zoo.. Perhaps they had concerns for where this animal might end up, just like our ethical dog breeders here. Would you sell a dog to a potential puppy mill rather than PTS if that was the situation at hand? Would you sell an animal to a hoarder, just because it was neutered? I also think somebody else mentioned that perhaps under the guidelines they were not allowed to sell to non members.

I don't really think we have enough details on the situation to be able to make the kind of judgements that have been made in this thread.

Actually, a wildlife park in the UK that bought a Giraffe from the zoo in 2012, and is also a member of the EAZA, wanted Marius but Copenhagen zoo ignored their request.

[BlackJaq]

Yes and the giraffe they already had was a brother of this animal so had very similar genes. I don't know why that was an issue for them, whether the did not have a bachelor group or what, I cannot explain all their reasons.

However, they chose to slaughter their giraffe instead and make use of its body through educating some zoo patrons and feeding its meat to the carnivores.

I cannot see a problem with that. It was their giraffe and they can do with it what they please so long as they stay within the law and treat it humanely. Is there a law that says they have to sell a giraffe or another zoo animal on and they are not allowed to butcher if for meat, in public or private?

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq

[BlackJaq]

Everybody is of course free to disagree with what this zoo did but the outrage and general hatred being poured onto the zoo and their staff is way out of proportion in my opinion. Do you write death threats to people who raise cows and sheep for meat as well because they choose to have their animals slaughtered instead of sending them to sanctuaries? I believe some of the people in this thread not only eat meat, but raise animals for human consumption as well.

Do you think those people should be judged in a similar manner?

What about people who raise breeds that were docked in the past and docked their pups? Many people find this cruel and inhumane, too. Do those breeders deserve this kind of hate mail? Even if they feel they acted in the best interests of their pups? What about the people who have previously mentioned they would like some or all of their pets PTS when they die to save them from an unknown fate or unsuitable home? It's a slippery slope so I am extra careful before making decisions on right and wrong based on emotion alone.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq

[OSoSwift]

Perhaps children would grow to be a bit more responsible with how they treat their pets and how they acquire and dispose of them if they had to watch them being put down in a shelter

Sorry I call bullshit!

My children fully understand the circle of life. They fully understand responsibilities of owning, caring for and treating animals well. If our animals die or need to be euthanased they are told that is what will heppen and why. They do not need to be at a public spectacul to learn the value of an animal or the circle of life. If one day they wish to be present at one of our pets euthanasia's or one of our livestocks deaths then they will eb abllowed to be but I will fully take them thorugh what will happen as I don't really need to deal with nigthmares.

Interestingly I breed beef cattle and fat lambs. I know exactly how my animals are treated and I have no issue at all with eating my meat I produce. They are not locked up anywhere, they graze paddocks all day every day with shelter and an abundence of water, company and feed.

I wouldn't write death threats to anyone, that is just stupid.

As I have said. I do not believe he should have been bred in the first place, however he was. If they ahve space issues and he needs to be euthed I have no issue with that it was done in as humane way possible. I do not have an issue with him being fed to carnivores in large chunks with his distinguishable hide left on.

What I have an issue with was the bloody public circus surrounding it all. Hey look kids lets go get an icecream, see this animal killed and carved up shall we, what a great night of family entertainment! That is NOT the way to teach kids respect for animals, the circle of life or any other supposed life lesson when it come to living breathing creatures.

I feel deeply for his carers and those who would have fallen in love with him along the way. Whilst what happened would have happened anyway they should have been allowed to deal with it quietly and not in public view. It is the blatant disregard for the act of tacking a living creatures life that I find too hard to swallow. I will never agree with what they did. No amount of factual arguement will make a public circus okay, ever.

I also would be slightly disturbed if people wanted to pull up chairs to watch an animal being killed, I woudl think they weren't right in the head. If it is for learning, I have no issue, if it is for eating, I have no issue, if it's for a spectator sport I ahve an issue.

Edited February 12, 2014 by OSoSwift

[OSoSwift]

I think it was wrong that they killed him in the first place. What they did after doesn't bother me so much. The zoo have said that they have dissected a number of animals in public.

Breeding an animal that you don't need and then killing it is just dodgy breeding.

absolutely agree.

[BlackJaq]

But how do you know or tell the difference why these people were there?

How do you know they weren't there for education? Just because it is not their job to cut up animals?

You just said yourself, if your kids wanted to be there when one of your animals is killed then you would let them, yet you would forbid the parents of those children who attended this to make that decision?

Do you only breed your meat animals when you want to keep them as pets? No of course not, you breed them for meat so you basically breed them to be killed.

Judging by your post you obviously feel something for your stock and perhaps you interact with them and maybe some even have names. I really don';t understand how you can feel your animals are any different than this animal, other than perhaps people aren't paying you to come and look at your animals while they are alive. I don't understand how that makes a difference though. I would appreciate it if you could explain.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq

[Simply Grand]

Yeah well I dont think meat comes in plastic trays and I can still drop a Roo from 300 metres away right between the eyes - if I have to shoot a sheep I dont call in the towns folk to watch me do it - I do all I can to do it quietly -out of sight because its not something I like to do and its not something I would like to watch someone else do. The idea that someone would think its no big deal for me to do that is disgusting because killing a living being should not be trivialised and in my opinion it shouldalways be seen to be a major deal. If someone said to me "Oh good can I come and watch you kill a sheep and cut it up and feed it to the dogs" - Id think there was something a bit wrong with them and I simply don't think it should be part of the zoo experience in front of a public audience. Im not saying Im upset about the thing being eaten with people watching - just dont agree with the entire process being presented the way it was.

I wasn't having a go at you or any others who had that take on it Steve, simply responding to the statement that zoos can't feed whole carcasses. There's great value in feeding whole carcasses to captive carnivores and not just from a nutritional perspective but it's something that generally isn't done. We gave a whole roo to the dingoes once where I worked and had to give it to them at closing and remove it before opening because the idea freaks out the customers. (It was hit by a car and killed, not killed by us)

I knew you werent having a go at me and I sort of feel that my reaction to it all is rather emotional and unrealistic but its how I feel about it .

Having a show put on killing and cutting up and serving the animal which has been known to those who visited and saw it as a living creature just makes me feel its a rather insensitive to those who had seen this animal as part of the zoo experience walking and moving around etc.

There is a big difference between having an already dead chicken thrown to a croc or a lamb shank fed to a dog or even seeing the croc kill its own food because its an animal and not supposed to give a shit but as humans I feel we should consider taking the life of a living creature something that's done with some kind of empathy and sorrow - as a necessary evil - not as a basis for some side show. Its sick.

Yes and yes Steve, I agree. I've been trying to think logically about what it is that bothers me about this and to be honest I think it is something beyond logic and practicality. I don't have a particular problem with Marius being killed as it does sound like it was done quickly, humanely and he wouldn't have known what was happening, and I certainly have no problem with him being fed to the lions. I admit I was a bit taken aback at the pictures of the beautiful giraffe skin on the chunks of meat however I can easily overcome that with the realisation that that is exactly how it would be in the wild.

My feelings are coloured by my experiences being with shelter dogs as they are euthanased, in both shelter and zoo situations we as humans have put these animals into a highly unnatural situation and taken away all control they have over their lives and I therefore feel that we have a huge responsibility to do out best for them and that includes acknowledging that the decision and act of taking their lives are significant and to be taken seriously.

To me making it a public event where anyone can just turn up to watch for whatever reason suits them doesn't do that. I even feel it's different to the responsibility we have to our own pets - we (as decent pet owners) give them a life they are supposed to have as domestic pets, a stable home environment, attention, exercise, an extent of freedom to do the things they want to do etc etc so to me we then have more of a right to decide on the circumstances of their death (who is there, what happens afterwards etc). Shelter and I assume zoo animals form close bonds with the people who spend the most time with them and feel most comfortable and happy with those people, not with the people who come and look at them from outside their enclosure, so those are the people who should be there to share their last moments, not all and sundry who feel like turning up. I know it isn't very logical as technically I know the giraffe and our shelter dogs don't know that they are about to have their last moments, but can't we go beyond pure logic in certain situations?

I can certainly see the value in people who eat meat going to a farm and watching an animal that humans in their part of the world actually eat and that has been raised for food being killed and butchered, although I still don't feel comfortable with it being a "come one, come all, slaughter at 3pm" type event, but I don't think using a giraffe that is to be fed to lions in a zoo is really comparable to that.

sorry for the rambling, I'm finding it hard to get my thoughts completely into words on this one.

[OSoSwift]

But how do you know or tell the difference why these people were there?

How do you know they weren't there for education? Just because it is not their job to cut up animals?

You just said yourself, if your kids wanted to be there when one of your animals is killed then you would let them, yet you would forbid the parents of those children who attended this to make that decision?

Do you only breed your meat animals when you want to keep them as pets? No of course not, you breed them for meat so you basically breed them to be killed.

I have an issue with the fact it was made a public circus. I do not have an issue with an animal being humanley destroyed and/or fed out for the fourth time!

The difference is I would be killing my animal for food not a circus. Yes I breed them to be killed to eaten, not for a circus.

I interact with my animals as a mob, they are not named and not friendly. They recieve treatment but as they are not stud animals I would not be able to tell you if I had treated a sheep for anything twice or something else previously. They are prorvided with all the things they require in life and I pride myself on the health and care of any animal in my care, pet or otherwise. I do not form the relationships with my commercial animals that I do with my pet sheep, cows, Alpaca and horses.

Anything I feed, that is named is a pet and stays until it dies of old age or humane euthanasia.

Edited February 12, 2014 by OSoSwift

[raineth]

Although my preference would be for spay/neuter/ or some form of birth control; I don't think that just because people were there watching means that it was done inhumanely, or that it wasn't done without respect to the animal. In fact, I'm glad the zoo was open and honest about what they were doing, and how they were doing it and didn't try to hide it from the public.

[BlackJaq]

Sorry I must have added more to my post after you'd started to respond.

What exactly is the "circus" that is being referred to? Are people bothered by the fact that you can buy food and drinks in a zoo and people might have brought them? That would no be very hygienic, I suppose. I see no indication of any kind of inappropriate decorations, jokes being made or anything else. I have since found a video and the crowd looks and sounds quiet and attentive. What should they be doing? Sobbing in disbelief?

Anyway, as I said, nobody was forced to go and since all other aspects of this event were apparently fine, except that it is public, then perhaps simply avoiding it would be the best measure to take. However, the fact that threats and harassment are being directed at the zoo staff is the actual disgusting part of this whole story. The zoo staff probably didn't just decide ont he day to knack Marius in front of an unsuspecting crowd and spray blood at everyone for everyone's entertainment.

I have not seen any mention of whether he was killed in front of a crowd or if he was killed in private and only the dissection was public. If it was mentioned somewhere perhaps somebody could point it out to me.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq

[BlackJaq]

Yes and yes Steve, I agree. I've been trying to think logically about what it is that bothers me about this and to be honest I think it is something beyond logic and practicality. I don't have a particular problem with Marius being killed as it does sound like it was done quickly, humanely and he wouldn't have known what was happening, and I certainly have no problem with him being fed to the lions. I admit I was a bit taken aback at the pictures of the beautiful giraffe skin on the chunks of meat however I can easily overcome that with the realisation that that is exactly how it would be in the wild.

My feelings are coloured by my experiences being with shelter dogs as they are euthanased, in both shelter and zoo situations we as humans have put these animals into a highly unnatural situation and taken away all control they have over their lives and I therefore feel that we have a huge responsibility to do out best for them and that includes acknowledging that the decision and act of taking their lives are significant and to be taken seriously.

To me making it a public event where anyone can just turn up to watch for whatever reason suits them doesn't do that. I even feel it's different to the responsibility we have to our own pets - we (as decent pet owners) give them a life they are supposed to have as domestic pets, a stable home environment, attention, exercise, an extent of freedom to do the things they want to do etc etc so to me we then have more of a right to decide on the circumstances of their death (who is there, what happens afterwards etc). Shelter and I assume zoo animals form close bonds with the people who spend the most time with them and feel most comfortable and happy with those people, not with the people who come and look at them from outside their enclosure, so those are the people who should be there to share their last moments, not all and sundry who feel like turning up. I know it isn't very logical as technically I know the giraffe and our shelter dogs don't know that they are about to have their last moments, but can't we go beyond pure logic in certain situations?

I can certainly see the value in people who eat meat going to a farm and watching an animal that humans in their part of the world actually eat and that has been raised for food being killed and butchered, although I still don't feel comfortable with it being a "come one, come all, slaughter at 3pm" type event, but I don't think using a giraffe that is to be fed to lions in a zoo is really comparable to that.

sorry for the rambling, I'm finding it hard to get my thoughts completely into words on this one.

Yes, we certainly can go beyond pure logic in some situations and people routinely do exactly that. However, surely you can not be upset when people apply the same principal to you?

For example (sorry, here I go with the examples again) I have seen so called "crazies" on animal rights pages cursing shelter staff and vets for putting down animals, instead of refusing to participate in this act where innocent animals are killed for no reason at all.

How do you feel about this? Do you feel it is right and just for those people to ignore your reasons for participating or would you prefer if those people listened to your reasons with an open mind and perhaps acknowledged that you were not being a cruel and heartless person, but did what you felt was best for XYZ reasons?

Do you prefer that people judge you based on their emotions in that very first moment of hearing your story or would you prefer they go beyond their initially startled emotions and perhaps confront the facts behind your actions?

I do not mean to attack anybody personally but the whole "do not judge lest ye be judged" and "rocks in a glass house" and all those other sayings seem pretty appropriate to me.

[BlackJaq]

I am actually quite positively surprised at the discussion so far. I appreciate that most people have responded in a calm manner and actually invested some thought into my arguments, rather than just shutting down and refusing to think about difficult issues.

[OSoSwift]

Okay, My personal opinion is the giraffe is taken to the area to be euthed, is euthed in a humane way, is cut up to be fed out, is fed out. Done dusted. No issue, No public display. People there that need to be there and no more.

That is what I think is an appropriate way to do it. Having the public there is turning it into a circus.

When I get sheep and cattle butchered it is done with a minimum of fuss, people and handling. The aim is to get it done quickly, cleanly adn with the leasta mount of stress to the animal as possible. It is not a public display. If a group of apprentices were to come out and watch, then I could deal with that, they need to learn such things for their employment. Should the general public wish to come, nope.

Having said that I think they fact they have told everyone exactly what they were doing and why in a frank and open way is commendable

Edited February 12, 2014 by OSoSwift