BlackJaq Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Do you think it's appropriate to milk the public for entry fees to see the cute baby animals they have bred - have the keepers name and form bonds with them - and then slaughter them for public "entertainment/education" a couple of years down the track? T. I don't really agree with the whole zoo concept, as I said earlier (I gave reasons, too) so no, I do not agree with milking the public to see animals kept in a poor imitation of their natural habitat but I have yet to find a real argument against preserving some species which may be extremely threatened in the wild. This argument only applies to those species which are actually being re-released into the wild so it probably doesn't apply to giraffes. I think many zoos keep animals in very substandard conditions, too small enclosures and with little to no enrichment. I think the whole idea of keeping large carnivores in captivity for the entertainment of the masses is wrong. However, I see nothing wrong with humanely raising surplus animals to be fed to other animals in the zoo as a way to reduce or even avoid purchasing meats that were raised and killed inhumanely. I find the arguments given by many here not very logical or downright hypocritical. People on this forum regularly complain about animal rights activists arguing about their practices for emotional reasons and not reasons of logic and then the same people go ahead and act in the same manner because it is a topic that does not affect them or their hobbies personally. I found that disappointing. And no, personally I would not like to form a bond with an animal and then kill it and dissect it and feed it to lions but I have not found many of the reasons given here to be based on reason but only emotion. I do agree with Steve's argument, that killing an animal for entertainment purposes can quickly lead to a decline into blood sports such as dog fighting, bull baiting, animal tripping etc, however all those blood sports are inherently inhumane. Killing an animal quickly and cleanly with a captive bolt gun and a well placed bolt is exactly how animals are (or should be) killed in most western abattoirs. It is commonly accepted as a humane way to slaughter an animal. Somebody else brought a good argument, which was "not teaching children respect for animals" and I cannot say whether this event was conducted in a way as to teach children respect or not because I was not there and have not seen any video footage of it, so I do not know the exact details. We get our kids to dissect entire frogs in school. Done the wrong way this will also reduce the respect they have for that animal. I have seen people in school chase each other around with parts of their brain or frog or whatever with no respect for the creature at all, but I have also been in class with a teacher who had a very good way of explaining what and why they were dissecting animals and how to treat those animals even after their death. I don't think we can judge how this went down from the news stories as they are written in a very sensationalist manner and give no real details to allow us to judge the event. I see nobody laughing in the photos, everybody looks interested and quiet to me. Edited February 11, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 The fact remains that there was an offer to rehome this particular animal and allow it to live out its life being well looked after in another zoo... there was no real reason for it to have to be killed in the first place... except some inane "rule" that the people wanting to do the killing cited. There is no reason he couldn't have been desexed and allowed to live his life out somewhere else. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) One article I read mentioned that all offers came from zoos who do not operate under the same strict guidelines as this zoo and there was apparently some concern that an animal going to such a zoo might end up in a private collection. I am not intimate with conditions in private collections around Europe but I know some Eastern European zoos are a disgrace. Nothing is stopping a non member zoo from selling this animal on to another non member zoo.. Perhaps they had concerns for where this animal might end up, just like our ethical dog breeders here. Would you sell a dog to a potential puppy mill rather than PTS if that was the situation at hand? Would you sell an animal to a hoarder, just because it was neutered? I also think somebody else mentioned that perhaps under the guidelines they were not allowed to sell to non members. I don't really think we have enough details on the situation to be able to make the kind of judgements that have been made in this thread. Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 One of the zoos (Yorkshire) offering a home already had one of their giraffes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) I don't really think we have enough details on the situation to be able to make the kind of judgements that have been made in this thread. Well that's plain silly. There have been photos, there have been statements by the zoo, there have been witnesses to what happened. I think there has been certainly plenty of details made public to allow people to make their own judgements. I also find the necessity for comparisons strange, that is the comparison between what happened at the zoo and what happens in livestock farming, in laboratories, etc etc. Why cannot something be judged on its own and found to be wrong or right or unnecessary or whatever. The majority of decent caring people have found this whole thing abhorrent - why then doe people find it necessary to start pushing other sorts of killings at them. Probably many people find all the other sorts of animal slaughter abhorrent as well. Why are there any number of animals rights organisations and vegans and vetarians. Comparisons are just so much muddying of the waters. Let's just judge this one occurrence on its own merits. Edited February 12, 2014 by Danny's Darling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) double post Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) I have judged it on its own merits and according to the details given I can see no issue. The animal was killed humanely and there was no suffering. The main issue people have given is that it was a "public spectacle". I see no issue with that as it was a great educational opportunity and if this was a cow or pig or a piece of meat without a name at Taronga zoo (which happens to be fed out in front of a crowd regularly) then nobody would have blinked. ETA: I found people's emotional investment with this particular animal very strange. As I said, I am wondering how this animal is more important than a cow? I don't understand how "The majority of decent caring people have found this whole thing abhorrent - why then doe people find it necessary to start pushing other sorts of killings at them" this is in any way relevant. Plenty of people find things wrong but have no valid reason for finding it wrong, other than their own emotions. I am not sure how I can illustrate my point without making comparisons since the only difference is the species of this animal. How do you decide who are "decent caring people"? Plenty of people I have spoken to also find no issue. I find they are all decent and caring. They treat their animals humanely. Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Marius became "more important" than a cow when his ancestors were taken from the wild to be used in breeding programmes supposedly set up to stop his kind from becoming extinct. T. Edited to correct idiot usage of wrong term - meant ancestors not descendants... *grin* Edited February 12, 2014 by tdierikx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 He has no descendants, that is the whole point. Genetic diversity is important in all species and his "descendants" were not needed/wanted as they might lead to too much inbreeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 As I said, I am open to valid reasons that can be explained by logic but the arguments that are being brought up now are neither Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 As much as I personally on an emotional level find what happened awful and I would not like to see it ever happen again, I do think the logic in your argument is irrefutable BlackJaq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I meant ancestors... I'm blaming the fact I had surgery a few days ago for the typo... *grin* T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Maybe the pounds should start doing it, to show children the circle of life. Surplus animals, they are going to be killed anyway. You could charge an entry fee and sell popcorn. Would anyone be defending the public kill and butchery spectacle then? I wondered that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Perhaps children would grow to be a bit more responsible with how they treat their pets and how they acquire and dispose of them if they had to watch them being put down in a shelter. Isn't that exactly what people on here keep saying needs to happen to those people who dump their pets or treat them badly? To work a day in a shelter and have to put down a bunch of unwanted pets? Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 To me a cow IS just as important, I don't want to see ANY animal be killed and cut up, but that's just me. Would people care more if it was dogs they were cutting up for an audience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Perhaps children would grow to be a bit more responsible with how they treat their pets and how they acquire and dispose of them if they had to watch them being put down in a shelter. Isn't that exactly what people on here keep saying needs to happen to those people who dump their pets or treat them badly? To work a day in a shelter and have to put down a bunch of unwanted pets? And watch them be cut up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 To me a cow IS just as important, I don't want to see ANY animal be killed and cut up, but that's just me. Would people care more if it was dogs they were cutting up for an audience? Well there you go, being a vegan you are at least not being a hypocrite. I bet most other posters here in this thread can not say the same for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Perhaps children would grow to be a bit more responsible with how they treat their pets and how they acquire and dispose of them if they had to watch them being put down in a shelter. Isn't that exactly what people on here keep saying needs to happen to those people who dump their pets or treat them badly? To work a day in a shelter and have to put down a bunch of unwanted pets? And watch them be cut up? I'm not sure what the issue is with cutting them up. I realize you don't support cutting up any animal, being a vegan, but animals are being dissected in vet class, biology and a bunch of other situations every day. If it is ok for those animals, why is it not ok for this giraffe? Cats and dogs who are put down in shelters and pounds are the ones being dissected in vet class most of the time as far as I know, so they are already doing that. Nobody is forced to watch it. I doubt any one of those people watching that giraffe cut up was held there against their will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah I agree, I just wonder if so many people would have turned out if it was a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Yeah I agree, I just wonder if so many people would have turned out if it was a dog. I don't know. I find that question very interesting, and also what somebody else mentioned before, that some zoo staff would like to feed whole carcasses but won't due to the public reaction. I would certainly be interested in any kind of dissection guided by somebody who knows what they are looking at so long as the animal involved was killed humanely. I realize this is not everybody's cup of tea but I bet everybody is happy to have a vet treat their animal and do surgery on it after studying anatomy extensively, rather than just having seen a picture once in a book or being told about it before performing a spay or whatever. People are happy to make use of any knowledge that is useful to them yet they are happy to judge people trying to gain such knowledge. The hypocrisy more than anything in this thread is what I find silly and disappointing. Reminds me of the docking debates. Edited February 12, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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