BJean Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I can understand why this method of management occurs- thanks kelpiecuddles for that different perspective on the matter, but I am personally in the camp of 'don't breed if the animal will have no future'. The public spectacle that was made of Marius' death is downright disturbing to me, it seems so disrespectful. I believe that controlled breeding is the more ethical option. On the other hand, why is killing a giraffe (individuals with no conservation value) for meat and killing a domestic animal for meat any different? Is it not better to feed zoo carnivores animals that have been raised with care in a zoo, rather than farmed animals which (certainly in the case of factory farms) may not have had such a pleasant life. But then where do we draw boundaries? The lion situation I can see no positives to whatsoever. Why would they let the population get so large that they could not safely manage them? It seems that drawing in visitors with cute cubs was the reasoning, which to me is so wrong. Sometime we must kill. But it is a heavy duty, and not the debased activity that was executed here. This is not about boundaries, but disconnection of the human from the earth and its creatures. To [cull - ok] and cut up for spectacle ... Copenhagen, what disgusting humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Would that as much thought went into dog breeding programs as zoo breeding programs. Yes, I find this disturbing. But I can hardly turn on the flipping TV without finding something disturbing, say nothing of the news. People have some strange and terrifying appetites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'm of the opinion that if an animal in a zoo is likely to produce offspring surplus to the requirement of the program of maintaining stable genetically required stock/numbers, then that animal should be prevented from producing any offspring at all. Zoos in other parts of the world use contraceptives effectively with their animals - so why in this day and age are we seeing this sort of thing happen? We frown upon indiscriminate breeding of pet species (ie. dogs and cats)... so why should it be different with exotic animals in a zoo environment? One would think it even more pertinent when you are looking at extremely limited "rehoming" prospects for the surplus "stock", yes? Marius would have been an effective drawcard while he was young and cute - and I'm under no illusion that he'd been used as such to get people through the gates up until this point. Making a public spectacle of his death and dismemberment was completely disrespectful to both Marius AND the keepers that have cared for him up until this point. If the "rules" state that exotic animals be allowed to breed indiscriminately, with this as the eventual outcome due to surplus stock - then quite simply the "rules" need some major tweaking... I will state again that I have no problem with the fact that Marius' remains were used to feed other animals. He was fit and healthy, and his meat shouldn't go to waste... but it should never have had to happen in the first place... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'm of the opinion that if an animal in a zoo is likely to produce offspring surplus to the requirement of the program of maintaining stable genetically required stock/numbers, then that animal should be prevented from producing any offspring at all. Zoos in other parts of the world use contraceptives effectively with their animals - so why in this day and age are we seeing this sort of thing happen? We frown upon indiscriminate breeding of pet species (ie. dogs and cats)... so why should it be different with exotic animals in a zoo environment? One would think it even more pertinent when you are looking at extremely limited "rehoming" prospects for the surplus "stock", yes? Marius would have been an effective drawcard while he was young and cute - and I'm under no illusion that he'd been used as such to get people through the gates up until this point. Making a public spectacle of his death and dismemberment was completely disrespectful to both Marius AND the keepers that have cared for him up until this point. If the "rules" state that exotic animals be allowed to breed indiscriminately, with this as the eventual outcome due to surplus stock - then quite simply the "rules" need some major tweaking... I will state again that I have no problem with the fact that Marius' remains were used to feed other animals. He was fit and healthy, and his meat shouldn't go to waste... but it should never have had to happen in the first place... T. I came in here to have my say on this but T has expressed my sentiments far more succinctly than I could have done. Well said T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I find the act of the death and public display was tastless and inappropriate. How we treat other living beings in life and death defines us a human beings. An animal has to die, fine, I have no issue with that ( apart from why the hell breed him int he first place?). Turning it into a spectator sport is in bad taste and not instilling values in children and people is a sad reflection on society. I feel the same OSo.. I understand he was surplus to the zoos needs and for some reason or other, he couldn't be relocated - that only leaves one sad option. The public display of that option is what I find incredibly distasteful.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 If they didn't want to breed from him, and think castration is cruel they could have just vasectomised (is that a word?) him. Definitely better ways to have handled it that what they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Rules didn't kill the giraffe. People did. Rules simply provided them with an excuse to sidestep responsibility. Plays out the world over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Rules didn't kill the giraffe. People did. Rules simply provided them with an excuse to sidestep responsibility. Plays out the world over... That's such a specious argument and along the lines of "guns don't kill people . . . . . " The "event" is certainly garnering a lot of attention and I doubt (and hope) it will be a long time before something like this ghastly behaviour is made a public spectacle again. Are humans the only animal in earth who gather around to watch the killing of another in the interests of entertainment? Oh, sorry - this was educational and done so children could see the insides of an animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wildthing Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Yet another human made mess involving animals with different humans trying to sort the mess out. When Will They Ever Learn?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 If they didn't want to breed from him, and think castration is cruel they could have just vasectomised (is that a word?) him. Definitely better ways to have handled it that what they did. Oh the irony! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) I'd hate this to set a precedent of overbreeding in order to supply food for the carnivores... but I can see it happening under the current "rules" they are adamantly sticking to... Call me a cynic... Can you see them calling it "natural" food for the carnivores? Next up will be throwing live animals to the big cats so they can experience the natural instincts of the hunt... T. Edited February 11, 2014 by tdierikx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe the pounds should start doing it, to show children the circle of life. Surplus animals, they are going to be killed anyway. You could charge an entry fee and sell popcorn. Would anyone be defending the public kill and butchery spectacle then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Here is some info on why many people are against specifically breeding white tigers: http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/the-truth-about-white-tigers/ White tigers occur after breeding two Bengal tigers with a recessive gene that controls coat color. It has been said the entire captive white tiger population originated from one single white tiger and has been inbred ever since. In order to retain this recessive gene zoos and breeders must continually breed father to daughter and father to granddaughter and so on. This inbreeding has caused many genetic problems with tigers such as cleft palates, scoliosis of the spine, mental impairments and cross eyes. Many of the cubs that are born either in zoos or by breeders have to be ‘disposed’ of because they are malformed at birth. - See more at: http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/the-truth-about-white-tigers/#sthash.GaH9IyDS.dpuf And in my opinion, if zoos can do a more humane job at breeding food for their carnivores then I am all for that rather than patronizing the factory farming system that seems to currently supply a lot of beef etc. Why should they not raise surplus animals to feed other animals in their care if the surplus animals have a good life and a humane death? Again I have to ask if a giraffe's life is worth more than any of the meat animals we slaughter each day. Is it too exotic to be raised for meat while sheep and goats are too boring to worry about? I think all animals deserve equal respect and humane treatment. Edited February 11, 2014 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'd hate this to set a precedent of overbreeding in order to supply food for the carnivores... but I can see it happening under the current "rules" they are adamantly sticking to... Call me a cynic... Can you see them calling it "natural" food for the carnivores? Next up will be throwing live animals to the big cats so they can experience the natural instincts of the hunt... T. Plenty of countries already allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'd hate this to set a precedent of overbreeding in order to supply food for the carnivores... but I can see it happening under the current "rules" they are adamantly sticking to... Call me a cynic... Can you see them calling it "natural" food for the carnivores? Next up will be throwing live animals to the big cats so they can experience the natural instincts of the hunt... T. Part of the reason I dislike zoos is actually the fact that many species are unable to express their natural behavior, such as hunting, forming natural packs and breeding. Obviously we cannot give live animals to zoo critters to entertain them for ethical reasons, however if you look at the life of a carnivore in captivity (or even an animal that would travel long distances each day in the wild) then it doesn't have much in common with how they were "meant" to live anymore. I see no problem in letting zoo animals raise offspring and slaughtering surplus unless we are going to stop raising other animals for meat in worse conditions than this. I actually find that option better than supporting things like indoor piggeries or broiler chickens raised indoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Space needs to be a large consideration if you intend to breed/produce your own food for exotic carnivores... and many zoos just don't have the space necessary. If you are truly going to run a self sufficient zoo, I'd say you'd need rotating crop paddocks for the herbivores, plus plenty of room to breed and raise your meat stock for the carnivores... that means a shitload of space required, yes? Not to mention time and money to maintain same... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe the pounds should start doing it, to show children the circle of life. Surplus animals, they are going to be killed anyway. You could charge an entry fee and sell popcorn. Would anyone be defending the public kill and butchery spectacle then? Considering lots of people with their children watched this barbaric "event", and some posters have said they would watch with their children, I can only assume that if it were a money maker, it could well and truly happen. What about that thread recently of the woman who kills animals all over the world and the people/organisation who defended and arranged for these killings? Let's face it, people in various parts of the world gather throughout the year to watch and bet on bear baiting, dog fights, rooster fights, badger hunts, fox hunts, etc etc etc. Just consider ourselves fortunate that we live in a country where, despite the fact that some of these ghastly things still happen, animal cruely is against the law and people can be prosecuted. Just scratch the surface of so-called civilisation . . . . Be ever vigilant because no doubt someone will pop up to say that we are denying people their "rights" if we don't allow these things to happen and, again, if there is money to be made all sorts of decencies fly out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 So it's not ok to raise zoo animals for meat because some zoos might not have enough space? They obviously had enough space for this animal. I know the zoo in Dubbo has tons of space out the back and they do keep some animals out there and off display. Why do animals intended for meat need to be kept out of exhibits? The zoo in Munich raises heaps of rabbits and guinea pigs and I can imagine where they go... Nobody ever seemed to have an issue with that so far but I guess they don't do it publically. Then again, I have been to plenty of zoos where carnivore feeding time is actually a huge, well advertised spectacle, lots of kids attend and love it. Is this more ok because it doesn't come in one piece or because the kids don't know the name of the meat? I fail to see the differences, really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Do you think it's appropriate to milk the public for entry fees to see the cute baby animals they have bred - have the keepers name and form bonds with them - and then slaughter them for public "entertainment/education" a couple of years down the track? T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) So it's not ok to raise zoo animals for meat because some zoos might not have enough space? They obviously had enough space for this animal. I know the zoo in Dubbo has tons of space out the back and they do keep some animals out there and off display. Why do animals intended for meat need to be kept out of exhibits? The zoo in Munich raises heaps of rabbits and guinea pigs and I can imagine where they go... Nobody ever seemed to have an issue with that so far but I guess they don't do it publically. Then again, I have been to plenty of zoos where carnivore feeding time is actually a huge, well advertised spectacle, lots of kids attend and love it. Is this more ok because it doesn't come in one piece or because the kids don't know the name of the meat? I fail to see the differences, really If you talk to people behind the scenes in the carnivore units, you'll find a lot want to feed full carcasses, but they don't do it because of what the reaction from the public would be like in Australia. Edited February 11, 2014 by LisaCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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