kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think the answer to that would probably depend a lot on your background Grizz. I'm sure the Europeans would be horrified to hear about us cutting up kangaroos to feed the animals at the wildlife park(it was roadkill) but they see them as our cute fuzzy Skippy. I'm sure bush meat would feature heavily in the diets of animals being fed in Africa, etc whereas we would not be so happy to hear about a zebra being cut up to feed the animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's not that simple unfortunately. If the zoos concerned had giraffes that were also closely related then they may still not have been able to have him. I'm not sure whether that is the case here but genetic diversity in zoos is generally treated as a 'continent wide' equation, if he didn't fit that equation maybe no zoo in the area could have taken him under the laws. I can't agree, kelpiecuddles. There are always ways and means. I would imagine the overriding factor governing the execution (as Kirislin called) of Marius would be money. All zoos have databases on their breeding programs of the animals and it would have taken a few minutes or less to find a place where Marius's genetics would not have posed a problem. And if there wasn't a place, well they should have let him go to one of the places that wanted him and presumably they wouldn't have bred from him, but have let him live out his life in comfort and dignity. The whole business is beyond disgusting and I hope the zoo is well and truly ashamed of what it has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'd say any surplus animals that may need culling are fair game grizabella... especially in cases like this where breeding seems to be indiscriminate... *sigh* I don't think we have that sort of problem in Australia because we are much more selective in our breeding programs generally. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's not that simple unfortunately. If the zoos concerned had giraffes that were also closely related then they may still not have been able to have him. I'm not sure whether that is the case here but genetic diversity in zoos is generally treated as a 'continent wide' equation, if he didn't fit that equation maybe no zoo in the area could have taken him under the laws. I can't agree, kelpiecuddles. There are always ways and means. I would imagine the overriding factor governing the execution (as Kirislin called) of Marius would be money. All zoos have databases on their breeding programs of the animals and it would have taken a few minutes or less to find a place where Marius's genetics would not have posed a problem. And if there wasn't a place, well they should have let him go to one of the places that wanted him and presumably they wouldn't have bred from him, but have let him live out his life in comfort and dignity. The whole business is beyond disgusting and I hope the zoo is well and truly ashamed of what it has done. I was going to say 'I understand' in response to kelpiecuddles' last post until I read this. Not having a go at you at all KC. I just think the whole thing is sad and could have been prevented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As I said, I don't agree with the methods just explaining that this is the generally accepted management method in Europe and it's not always simply up to the zoo and whether someone will take them and 'desex' them, they have actual laws over there relating to animals in zoos and at what age they must be euthanized if they are excess to genetic needs. To me and probably most over here it seems an odd way to manage things as we choose to use other methods such as contraception here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizabella Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I wonder if culling does occur over here in zoo populations of deer, antelope etc. that live in groups with only one male? I think it is a huge shame that Marius was not transferred into another zoo, but as KC said, maybe it just wasn't possible within the European zoos' laws and guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Another way to look at it is that in a small genepool such as exists in zoos if a valuable place for a giraffe is taken up by an animal who is surplus to the genepool then an animal of great importance to the genepool may have to be culled due to lack of space. personally I'd rather they just used a contraceptive method but I guess these are the decisions they must make if they choose this(rather barbaric) method of management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 An animal park in the UK and a zoo in Sweden had both made last-ditch attempts to save the animal by offering it a home, but Copenhagen zoo chiefs said this would still breach the strict EU laws. from here: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/danish-zoo-kills-giraffe-feed-other-animals-1435701 Sounds like they legally could not send it to the zoo that offered the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sadly I could only imagine it would Grizz, it's hard to imagine another way they could easily manage numbers with species like that, even if they did treat some of them contraceptively they would have to breed a certain number to maintain a healthy age group within the herd and every breeding would carry a chance of males that are hard to accommodate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Wow. Well I know if I ever went to Europe I'd never visit the zoos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakkjackal Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 No one was forced to watch the slaughtering. I myself would've probably been in the front row had I been there as I'm very interested in things beyond just the furry and cute. I see it as an opportunity for teaching kids (and adults alike) what actually is inside animals and gain understanding about the "circle of life". So many children these days think meat comes from the shops. I'm sure the staff made it as educational and professional as they could, minimising the gore factor. We dissected frogs and pigs' hearts in school, those were always my favorite classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I would also have been interested in the dissection although there are reports it was pretty poorly and hastily done and a bit of a hack job which is a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Me too Hockz, I haven't seen any reports of how it was done though, but I've watched a giraffe dissection on a documentary and I would watch one in real life. I don't agree in killing it in the first place but like KC I know why they did it and understand that. Grizabella, yes they do cull excess animals in zoos in Australia, Kangaroos are a big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibalgoldfish Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Another way to look at it is that in a small genepool such as exists in zoos if a valuable place for a giraffe is taken up by an animal who is surplus to the genepool then an animal of great importance to the genepool may have to be culled due to lack of space. *Cough* white lions/tigers.. inbred, churned out to zoos everywhere at the expense of normal coloured lions/tigers. While a natural genetic mutation does have it's place, and I can understand people wanting to preserve it, Sadly everything Big Cat White is now bred for "pretty" zoo pics and money... can't forget money! those things are big fundraisers! The white tigers in particular are a genetic mess yet they still take up money and room in places where actual threatened species of tiger could be held As for lions? Do you see many Asiatic lions in zoo? (you would if they're white...) Yes, I already know at least one person who is going to jump in here like a White *natch* Knight to defend them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Ah yes but there is a quota that zoos over there must comply with where a certain number of their exhibits must be for conservation purposes or something to that effect. So they would be required to work within the guidelines to support the captive conservation efforts of some animals requested of them but outside of that they can breed whatever random crappola they like. The regs are weird. ETA: Couldn't remember the organisation that they are signatory to, it's EAZA, The European Association of Zoos and Aquaria. Edited February 10, 2014 by kelpiecuddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Another way to look at it is that in a small genepool such as exists in zoos if a valuable place for a giraffe is taken up by an animal who is surplus to the genepool then an animal of great importance to the genepool may have to be culled due to lack of space. *Cough* white lions/tigers.. inbred, churned out to zoos everywhere at the expense of normal coloured lions/tigers. While a natural genetic mutation does have it's place, and I can understand people wanting to preserve it, Sadly everything Big Cat White is now bred for "pretty" zoo pics and money... can't forget money! those things are big fundraisers! The white tigers in particular are a genetic mess yet they still take up money and room in places where actual threatened species of tiger could be held As for lions? Do you see many Asiatic lions in zoo? (you would if they're white...) Yes, I already know at least one person who is going to jump in here like a White *natch* Knight to defend them.... Outlawed in Australia now Still a long way to go elsewhere though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Also are you suggesting I'm defending them? I think there is a big difference between defending someone/something and presenting facts so that people can make decisions about things for themselves based on real information rather than rumours and hype. I've said a number of times it's not a management model I support, I do believe though that people need to understand the reality of the guidelines that zoos are working within there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizabella Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Grizabella, yes they do cull excess animals in zoos in Australia, Kangaroos are a big one. I assumed that would be the case, thanks. Another way to look at it is that in a small genepool such as exists in zoos if a valuable place for a giraffe is taken up by an animal who is surplus to the genepool then an animal of great importance to the genepool may have to be culled due to lack of space. *Cough* white lions/tigers.. inbred, churned out to zoos everywhere at the expense of normal coloured lions/tigers. While a natural genetic mutation does have it's place, and I can understand people wanting to preserve it, Sadly everything Big Cat White is now bred for "pretty" zoo pics and money... can't forget money! those things are big fundraisers! The white tigers in particular are a genetic mess yet they still take up money and room in places where actual threatened species of tiger could be held As for lions? Do you see many Asiatic lions in zoo? (you would if they're white...) Yes, I already know at least one person who is going to jump in here like a White *natch* Knight to defend them.... Outlawed in Australia now Still a long way to go elsewhere though... It's good to hear that white lions and tigers are no longer bred in Australia. I know Mogo Zoo in NSW has bred them in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibalgoldfish Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Outlawed in Australia now More details please! A "Zoo" in Tassie imported several white lions a few years back. There was a huge hype "please help us name our lions" ect. they have bred and there was a big thing in the paper recently about their cubs. The words " white lions are a threatened species" annoyed the bajeebaz out of me. You know, them not being an actual species an all.... Also are you suggesting I'm defending them? If you mean me, no, not you :) Edited February 10, 2014 by cannibalgoldfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Taronga Zoo (Sydney) has been known to send some surplus animals to their sister zoo in Dubbo... recently they moved their male elephants (Gung and the two young males, Luk Chai and Pati Harn I think their names are) and a couple of keepers out there. There is talk they are starting up a male only herd there. They also sent their Gorilla family (Kibabu, Mouila, Kriba, Mahale, and Kipenzi) to Mogo Zoo to retire Kibabu and the older females from the breeding program. I don't know what the plans are for Mahale and Kipenzi when they hit breeding age, but I'm sure that it will be strongly regulated as to where they end up in the future. Zoos like Taronga in Sydney have limited space for their exhibits - so I can see why they would adhere to contraception and/or moving surplus animals to other zoos. I am under no illusions as to what may have to happen if animals cannot be moved on and space is at a premium. Taronga Sydney has recently been granted permission to breed their lions again, so the contraceptive in one of the females is being allowed to lapse. Taronga have a surplus of tigers at the moment - 3 males and 2 females all up (3 are the cubs of the other 2) - and are finding it difficult to find a place to send their excess cats (so I've heard from the keepers). Symbio's Sumatran Tigers, Cinta and Jalur, have been accepted into the international breeding program, and at some point, one of them will move to another zoo to be bred with - and Symbio will receive another of the same sex, and genetically selected, for the same purpose. Cinta is on contraceptives until that time comes. Their older tiger Kato is a Dreamworld retiree - he's of mixed Bengal/Sumatran blood, and thus will never be bred. If culling is necessary for any zoo animal population, I don't believe that it should be a public spectacle... sure, acknowledge that it happens, but putting it on public display is (to me anyways) a somewhat barbaric exercise and removes all dignity from the death of that animal. Copenhagen Zoo knew from the start that this particular Giraffe was surplus to their requirements, yet allowed him to get to the age of 2 before they killed and disected him in public... and I just feel that is morally and ethically reprehensible. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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