Tassie Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 LOL all the comments about BCs and sit stays funnily enough the only stay Ness ever broke in her trialling days was a drop stay and she sat up . Only ever broke that 1 stay in her life but not one I will ever forget as it cost her a place at the Adelaide Royal . I feel your pain, ness. With the first boy, I worked so hard on heavily rewarding him for sitting when I came back to him, that every now and again it came back to bite me in UD - he'd happily do the 10 minute down, and then occasionally - pop up happily as I walked back across the ring - or sometimes when I was back at his side - with an angelic look on his face "I'm a good boy momy - this is what you want isn't it". :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 I think the thing we find hardest is that most of our training has been sit stays with distraction, so there has been movement. If I put her in a sit stay and walk around, fidget, etc she will generally do the sit stay. But if I stand still, as is required in a trial, that's when she almost looks to me as if to go "well you're not going anywhere so I'll just lie down here"!!!! Frustrating!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 1391770082[/url]' post='6415139']JulesP is so right about it being a particularly BC thing. I sometimes think it goes back to their working style on stock .. sit is not a natural part of their repertoire. Might be just an excuse though. :laugh: Definitely true for my BCs. The ones with a natural lie down on sheep have always been the hardest to keep in a sit & the more upright ones on sheep have had no trouble with a duration sit stay. Doesn't mean it can't be done if they naturally clap, but definitely makes it harder to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) Yes, PME - had the same with Rory. So I did a couple of things - shortened the time and sometimes turned my back on him. Then built up the time then distance with no motion or figdgeting - but tiny increments. And something I learned from Ptolomy :D I'm pretty sure. Occasionally mark the sit while you're away from him, and release him to get a toy you throw back over his head - maybe the first step was release and throw the toy back when you're back to him. The idea is, the dog will be sitting up watching you like a hawk because at any point the toy could randomly appearand they could go back to get it. Actually, thinking about it, I think the mark and throw/release would sometimes be done even while you're walking away - so random times. Edited February 8, 2014 by Tassie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 It's funny how it works for different roles - "sit" is an absolute default for Em - you sit and Mum produces a birdie with the "bang stick." Fetch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 It's funny how it works for different roles - "sit" is an absolute default for Em - you sit and Mum produces a birdie with the "bang stick." Fetch! Not fair You have access to the ultimate reinforcer ... must make it so clear to Em - no sit = no bang stick and fetch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) It's funny how it works for different roles - "sit" is an absolute default for Em - you sit and Mum produces a birdie with the "bang stick." Fetch! Not fair You have access to the ultimate reinforcer ... must make it so clear to Em - no sit = no bang stick and fetch Oh I know! She learnt out of sight sit stays (in the hide) quick smart I tell ya! Last weekend I heard the judge comment on how hard she was wagging her tail whilst she was in the hide - she clears a path behind her lol. Edited February 8, 2014 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Another thing I'll say is that Poppy drops if she is anxious. If she isn't sure about the dogs next to her she prefers to be in a drop for some reason. Sitting her slightly in front of the other dogs helps this as eye contact is reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 JulesP is so right about it being a particularly BC thing. I sometimes think it goes back to their working style on stock .. sit is not a natural part of their repertoire. Might be just an excuse though. :laugh: Definitely true for my BCs. The ones with a natural lie down on sheep have always been the hardest to keep in a sit & the more upright ones on sheep have had no trouble with a duration sit stay. Doesn't mean it can't be done if they naturally clap, but definitely makes it harder to teach. I agree. Jazz is very much a "the sheep are still, I shall lay down and watch" dog. She is a pain for a sit stay. Lucky we don't trial in obedience so I don't need to worry about it, and if I do need to leave her I just leave her in a down. The exception begin agility start lines but as she is anticipating moving forward for these and they are not for very long she doesn't seem to lay down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 On the bright side they drop like rocks during heeling patterns!! :laugh: And your distance commands and drop on recall are fav tricks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 There is an obedience rule review coming up and I hope they remove the sit stay in the rule review. Why? Why avoid a problem instead of working on it? If your dog keeps breaking at the same time point it's that point which is your problem. Go back a step, recall her before she breaks quickly and heavily reward. Don't plug away when you know she's going to make a mistake. Also keep moving, side, back, zig zag etc so she's busy focussing on you and not sitting there blandly. Mix it up a bit, the problem is there because in some ways its not being fixed. If she does break before she hits the ground give her some form of feedback she has made a mistake and start again. We use uh uh or no as a signal to the dog it made a mistake - just gently not as a gruff punishment. Have patience and you will fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I don't have a problem with my dogs stays but I would also like to see longer sit stays removed from ANKC obedience. I just don't see the purpose of an out of sight sit stay, there is no time I would leave my dog in a long stay in the sit position. In real life if I want my dog to stay for a longer time I always ask for a down. To me it's an impractical exercise. Lots of competitors feel the same way regardless of whether they have issues with the exercise itself :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Nekhbet - it's not necessarily a training issue (Ptolomy is one of the best obedience trainers out there by the way) but a safety issue. Judges and stewards can be slow to react and many a good dog has been stood over or intimidated or worse during sit stays in particular. My male has been stood over multiple times in the ring and I am fortunate that he has held his ground and not reacted. However, he is MORE than capable of defending himself and I do not feel comfortable about entering CDX with out of sight stays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Nekhbet - it's not necessarily a training issue (Ptolomy is one of the best obedience trainers out there by the way) but a safety issue. Judges and stewards can be slow to react and many a good dog has been stood over or intimidated or worse during sit stays in particular. My male has been stood over multiple times in the ring and I am fortunate that he has held his ground and not reacted. However, he is MORE than capable of defending himself and I do not feel comfortable about entering CDX with out of sight stays. I agree TSD, Sadly I have seen these things happen at trials on more than on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Nekhbet - it's not necessarily a training issue (Ptolomy is one of the best obedience trainers out there by the way) but a safety issue. Judges and stewards can be slow to react and many a good dog has been stood over or intimidated or worse during sit stays in particular. My male has been stood over multiple times in the ring and I am fortunate that he has held his ground and not reacted. However, he is MORE than capable of defending himself and I do not feel comfortable about entering CDX with out of sight stays. I've had the same thing, Open Stays came back to find Darcy dropped. The steward told me that the rotty next to her had stood up immediately and stood over her for most of the stay, it had only been the last few seconds she'd gone down. The steward asked the judge if she could grab the rotty and remove it but he refused. Stupid owner of the rotty was bitching outside the ring that the dog continued breaking its stays but she kept on entering it hoping she'd finally get lucky and the dog would stay. Even on a NQ so the dog could practise. Thankfully the last trial for Darcy's CDX title had saggy hides, so I could peek over the top to make sure she wasn't being intimidated. I hate stays to start with, first trial I ever entered there was a fight in the other CCD ring stays because a judge allowed one dog to get in the face of another. Certainly made me quite wary of stays from then on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Then it's a management issue, not a dog issue and nothing to do with the sit stay itself. I leave my dog in a sit stay. Nothing's killed him yet sitting there for 5 minutes and he doesn't lay down. He takes up less space and can monitor his surroundings more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 I have to say I'm petrified that a dog will get up and move to Kenz during a stay. She would not deal well with that. I just wish there was more distance between the dogs and in all honesty in CCD I wish you could choose a sit or a drop, not have to do both. But that's a rule review discussion! For now I just need to work with the rules that are there and hope that the other dogs in the line don't decide to pick on my little girl!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Are the dogs not socialised or trained? Why would a dog who is going for an official title be freaked out by another dog going near them? Is the ANKC that soft these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Are the dogs not socialised or trained? Why would a dog who is going for an official title be freaked out by another dog going near them? Is the ANKC that soft these days? Definitely trained and socialised, but Kenzie can be reactive to dogs that she doesn't know. She likes predictability, and she expects that in a stay all the dogs stay. So far we haven't had an issue in the obedience trials we've entered, other than the whole dropping during the sit stay thing. But it is one of my big worries (and yes it is probably more of my worry than her), and I don't really want the work I've done with her undone because of a wandering dog during a trial. I would hope that the judge/steward would remove a dog that is wandering and standing over other dogs as really that is potentially creating a dangerous situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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