How Do You Teach A Stay?

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Just wondering what methods you all use to teach a sit stay? Kenz pretty much knows what stay means. A down stay - no problems!! She will stay for minutes on end even if I"m out of sight. A sit stay however, well, who can be bothered sitting for that long!!!! She never leaves her place but she goes in to a down. We can pull off a minute or so every so often but generally we get to anywhere between 30-45 sec and you can see she just has this thought of "well if we're not moving I'll just lie down and wait until we do something interesting"!!!

So just wondering what techniques you employ when teaching a solid sit stay with duration, so I can see if there is something else out there for me to try!

[kelpiecuddles]

Bahaha, Sascha does the same thing, I remember taking her sheep herding and the sheep were still so she just figured, bugger this and lay down to watch them, the trainer thought it was great that she was 'conserving her energy'.

[huski]

a lot of dogs lose drive in stays and this can often be because it has become a predictable exercise.

I release and reward my dogs from stays randomly and I never reward them in the stay position.

Keep it unpredictable and they will be more on edge, attentive and focused.

ETA: having said that I do think lengthy sit stays are a redundant exercise. I would never leave my dog in a sit stay in a real life situation, I would always leave them in a down.

Edited February 6, 2014 by huski

[Rainy]

The way iv had the most success is Time before distance, so if i wanted to extend the length of the stay i would go close to the dog so i could keep a better watch on them and once they are solid on the time build up distance again.

In your situation i would stand about 3 steps in front and watch body language, if the muscles move as if she is about to drop id give a firm sit to remind her what she is supposed to be doing. iykwim

ETA i had to do the opposite for my boy he would sit in a drop stay and this method worked for me but others may have better ideas and i agree with above i never do a stay for the same amount of time except in trials

Edited February 6, 2014 by Rainy

[alpha bet]

For a change of tack... perhaps provide a chair for the dog to sit on..... and then work the stays.... easier for the dog to sit on the chair as not really room to lay down.....

Once she is more comfortable with sitting for a longer period then change the format so she is sitting on lots of different things in lots of different places, a coffee table perhaps even when you go for a walk look for things like a fallen tree or a cut log, a round pine log....

Make it more of a challenge for your dog to balance in the sit and then progress to the ground in stages - even things like getting your dog to sit inside a hoop.... no cheating she must keep herself inside the hoop.... by making it a bit of a game then you are creating a habit of sit.....

[Podengo]

a lot of dogs lose drive in stays and this can often be because it has become a predictable exercise.

I release and reward my dogs from stays randomly and I never reward them in the stay position.

Keep it unpredictable and they will be more on edge, attentive and focused.

ETA: having said that I do think lengthy sit stays are a redundant exercise. I would never leave my dog in a sit stay in a real life situation, I would always leave them in a down.

Interesting, do you have problems with your dog breaking when you come back to her?

I've been having issues with the 10 minute out of sight stay for working trials. Elsie will do smaller lengths of time ok, and she is very on edge and alert (wagging her tail the whole time) but being such a small, skinny dog it's very obvious when she perks up a little bit and her chest comes off the ground. I've swapped to trying to get her to lay in a more relaxed position and chill out a bit... 10 minutes is a loooong time to be sitting there going OO MUM IS COMING BACK SOON SO EXCITING!!

[wuffles]

I also do a lot of work on staying in positions encouraging 'steady feet' (like you would do for a SFE or stand stay). So asking them to stay then trying to distract/move them from the position by say... luring with a bit of food. If they move, they get released, set up again and we try again. You can eventually get this to a point where you can throw balls, skip around them, have other dogs running around etc but they understand that that position is where they need to stay. Does that make sense?

[ness]

The problem with stays is they are boring for the most part. I never got much benefit out of luring type games as far as sit stays are concerned. I do think there is some merit to using a platform/chair to build duration. I do shorter duration stays on things like a peanu/balance disc t or even a bed or couch encourages them to work harder to remain sitting.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think it's important to keep stays light and fun. I practice sit stays much, much more than drop stays. I never use the word "stay". I teach "sit means sit until I say otherwise". I reward in position with food a lot. I play the steady feet game in all positions to ensure understanding. I don't make a big deal if they break - my NRM is to laugh and say "gotcha!" and they love it. Sometimes I reward by sending back to a retrieve or food pot or tug. I ask my dogs to sit in the middle of the oval whist I pack the car or set up training gear and they love it as much as their other training. In competition Em has to stay in the hide (so out of sight) whilst I fire a gun, reload and then call her up. Toughest thing for a Spaniel ever so I've used lots of things to tempt her out of the hide in training - throwing dummies, firing a real or cap gun, Mr TSD calling "hey, hey, hey!" If she holds her position I go back, reward in position, repeat, making it harder and then heel her out so she gets a formal retrieve as a reward. I avoid whistling her out in training as she has more forward momentum than she needs!

[huski]

Interesting, do you have problems with your dog breaking when you come back to her?

I've been having issues with the 10 minute out of sight stay for working trials. Elsie will do smaller lengths of time ok, and she is very on edge and alert (wagging her tail the whole time) but being such a small, skinny dog it's very obvious when she perks up a little bit and her chest comes off the ground. I've swapped to trying to get her to lay in a more relaxed position and chill out a bit... 10 minutes is a loooong time to be sitting there going OO MUM IS COMING BACK SOON SO EXCITING!!

No never really, sometimes they break in anticipation of the reward and come towards me, but I set that up and actually want them to break stays sometimes in training.

I could release them to the reward at any time they are staying so if I return it isn't any more exciting than any other second they are staying, it means returning to the dog isn't a cue or a reminder they are about to be released or rewarded. Not sure if that makes sense :)

[Podengo]

It does thanks :)

[JulesP]

Dropping in a sit stay is a very border collie thing to do :)

I do a lot of varying the time before I go back and reward to keep them guessing. So 10 secs - reward, then 20 secs, then 30 secs, then 40 secs etc. If they break I start at the beginning again.

Back sure the dog is sitting nice and square too before you leave. A bit of a rub on the chest and a 'sit up for Mummy' seems to help too.

Also move the dog after a sit stay and don't go straight into the drop for a drop stay. I also never ask for a sit to drop as a distance command.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Thanks!

You've given me things to play with and we'll figure out what works for her!!

I have heard that BC's pretty much often have an attitude of "well I'm staying and why would I waste my energy in a sit, a down is much better to save my energy"!!! She knows what it means, but I think she just figures a down is easier!!

I'm thinking we might start with the chair/table thing, she loves sitting on a chair so maybe the incentive of that might override the laziness of going in to a drop!!

[Ptolomy]

There is an obedience rule review coming up and I hope they remove the sit stay in the rule review.

[Tassie]

I like the idea of a chair or something as well. JulesP is so right about it being a particularly BC thing. I sometimes think it goes back to their working style on stock .. sit is not a natural part of their repertoire. Might be just an excuse though. :laugh:

Was trialling in Vic years ago with my previous BC boy .. 10 dogs in an Open sit stay .. 3 minutes OOS..3 BCs Came out from the hide to find 7sitting, 3down. You guessed it .. all three BCs. My boy was the last to go down apparently. I figured he looked along and decided BC union said no to the sit .

FWIW .. I'm another who uses the sit cue .. to mean sit there until I give you a conflicting cue ..cue to move, or release cue. Same with Stand and Down. But I still haven't got a totally reliable sit stay .. so I don't enter Open nod he's got CDX .. don't want to give him the chance to practise mistakes in the ring.

[ness]

LOL all the comments about BCs and sit stays funnily enough the only stay Ness ever broke in her trialling days was a drop stay and she sat up . Only ever broke that 1 stay in her life but not one I will ever forget as it cost her a place at the Adelaide Royal .

Edited February 7, 2014 by ness

[Dame Aussie]

Lili has a perfect sit stay, all I did was have her sit, put my hand out in a stop motion and say stay, and then slowly back away. Once I got to a certain distance I'd let her go and treat. Also did it walking round her in a circle.

She is extremely food motivated though! :laugh:

[Elise+Hudson]

I am having the opposite problem with Hudson - at least for short stays (we are only preparing for CCD at the moment) he sits like a rock for the sit stay, but either pops up to a sit in the down, or rolls onto one hip (which is not as bad..) but the sitting up in the downs is definitely a tough one for us at the moment!

[Scottsmum]

Watching this thread as Scottie often drops to a down while practicing a sit stay.

[Tassie]

There is an obedience rule review coming up and I hope they remove the sit stay in the rule review.

You're certainly not alone there, Ptolomy - but I really don't think it will happen. Too many die-hads - at least over this side. If we can at least get a more substantial distance between dogs, the stays would be a bit less problematic, although that wouldn't solve the sit problem.