To Vaccinate Or Not?

[Wundahoo]

Friend's dog brought it back from a national speciality a few years back - dog attended trial when it still had no symptoms and news of the outbreak hadn't broken.

Dog infected a number of dogs at the trial, some of her friends dogs and those of us who'd had contact quarantined our dogs as a precaution. Lots of entry fees for several weekends for lots of dogs went south.

It may only be an "inconvenient" disease but it has the potential to inconvenience a LOT of people beyond you. It can inconvenience people out of matings, titles, national attendances....Ask Customs - they had an entire kennel of dogs requiring quarantine a few years ago. I believe they vaccinate for it now.

Vaccinate or not for KC, your prerogative. But please quarantine your dogs if you have contact with KC - or indeed anything else. The lives of other dogs may depend on it. And you'd think this was common sense but FFS do NOT take a dog with a cough or diarrhoea to an event!!!

That's funny. My dog comes to work (vet) and has since he was a puppy. His last vaccine was at 16weeks and (touch wood) he's never contracted anything.

Has he been titred? The presence of a dog of questionable immunity at my local vets would piss me off big time. What a dog contracts and what a dog can incubate and spread are not one and the same thing.

Actually Haredown, The dog with "questionable" immunity, according to the WSAVA paper will have adequate protection. It has been vaccinated several times and a normal dog will seroconvert.

Also, if it regularly visits a place such a a vet hospital it will have developed a good "wild" type of immunity (or street immunity as it used to be called) simply because it has been placed in a situation where it will have exposure to all sorts of bugs and viruses...... sick dogs go to vet hospitals too !!

It will be a very healthy and strong individual.

"What a dog contracts and what a dog can incubate and spread are not one and the same thing."

I dont understand what you mean by this. Could you please elaborate a little bit more.

Just one more word on KC. It's possible for KC to be passed from human to dog. Some of the bacterial upper respiratory bugs that we get can be transferred to our dogs via aerosol contamination (ie when we cough), so to blame another dog for passing on the disease is not always correct. Some of the bordatella infections that we get are also the same as those that dogs get. We dont quarantine people who have a cough..... half the country's population would be locked at home if we did.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that coughing dogs should not be kept at home, I'm just drawing attention to the fact that there are other sources of U/R infections in dogs and the matter is not as simple as many would like to think.

A lot of people dont understand immunology well.

[Wundahoo]

(Please note; I have also put my request/comments below, on the Health forum)

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

That's funny. My dog comes to work (vet) and has since he was a puppy. His last vaccine was at 16weeks and (touch wood) he's never contracted anything.

Annual vaccines are outdated. Most of the vaccine companies recognise this and MOST now have 3 yearly vaccines available. With the guidelines available from the AVA and WSAVA there is no reason clinics should still be pushing annual vaccines.

If a dog does not seroconvert a vaccine, then it likely never will and vaccinating annually will not improve that. We need to be aiming to vaccinate more dogs/puppies, not less dogs more often!

Stormie, I agree completely as do many people on this Forum, that annual vaccinations are outdated, but unfortunately there are still very many vets who will routinely recall all of their clients on an annual basis for revaccination. Many dont even stock C3 any more and simply have C5.

I have had a very distressed puppy owner phone me from the vet hospital after being told by both nurse and vet that their pup would be "incompletely vaccinated" if it didnt have a C5, that it couldnt attend obedience school or puppy preschool, couldnt be boarded and that they were "negligent" to fail to complete the vaccination programme that they recommended. As the pup's breeder I was also under fire from both vet and nurse. After I finished with them both they were somewhat apologetic and they had lost a client, who went elsewhere for their vaccinations and of course everything else that was needed for their new puppy.

This method is hard core sales pitch by guilt and scare tactics. It is a method that is used very frequently I'm afraid.

On another occasion I had one friend bring their dog to stay with me. They also brought a letter that they had recieved a few days earlier from their vet, telling them that their dog was now "overdue for its annual vaccination and that its immunity had now fallen to unprotective levels"!!...... I kid you not !!!!! This dog had been given the recommended 3 x puppy and one adult vaccination abd was now 2 years old.

Many vets are aware of the recommendation of WSAVA and AVA but choose to ugnore them, giving every dog that comes through their doors a C5. So many clients when phoning to book for a vaccination are simnply TOLD it WILL be a C5. Bo choice, no discussion.

[Agility Dogs]

The vaccs only cover two strains of KC and there are dozens. When I have vaccinated my dogs against KC they still ended up getting a strain of it when they went to a boarding kennel which stipulated all dogs must have a C5 vacc, so I do feel it's quite pointless.

It's been years since I vaccinated against KC and I've never had my dogs get it again.

:D Me too. Although we picked it up from a flyball comp. Not a Kennel.

[tdierikx]

Adult dogs with enough immunity to stave off a full blown Parvo infection can still contract it and shed it via their faeces... vaccination doesn't necessarily mean that an animal won't GET the disease, it just means they are a lot less likely to develop the full blown symptoms of same...

T.

[Canine Coach]

CC when I lived in Brisbane I went to Animal Options who are a holistic vet clinic, not sure where your puppy buyer in QLD is but AO was great when I used them.

http://www.animaloptions.com.au

Thanks I breed 1-2 litter a year. Pups go to various states/cities. It would be good to have a list to include with all the other various fact/info. sheets, that I give to all puppy buyers/owners.

[Dame Aussie]

Wundahoo I totally agree re KC. I haven't vaccinated for KC in years. I always request a C3 vacc.

Same.

[stormie]

Yes and he has adequate protection :)

It's the same for every dog. A dog who is vaccinated annually could walk parvo into a clinic, as could someone coming in off the street to purchase something.

My point was more that as a dog who has had his puppy vaccines, he has shown to have adequate protection several years later. The WSAVA even make mention that vaccines quite possibly last a lifetime. My dog does not have any contact with consulting patients and never enters the hospital but he does walk through the waiting room of a morning when we arrives in the mornings.

[Wundahoo]

An interesting thread, but how would I get around the insistence of most boarding kennels for proof of C5 vaccination within the previous 12 months?

Find a boarding kennel that is up to date and will accept a C3 (triennial) or a titre test result which indicates that the dog is covered.

There are some boarding kennels that will accept this and some require a signed acknowledgement from all owners which indicates that they are aware of this, even for those whose dogs have been given a C5.

The number of boarding kennels which are now moving to a more enlightened attitude is growing.

Some say that it's a "duty of care" to ensure that all dogs have a minimum of C5 within the last 12 months but there is now so much science that proves this to be at the least unnecessary and in some instances could be considered detrimental to the long term health of the dogs that use their facilities.

If my choice was to give my dog a C5 every year or be inconvenienced by finding alternative accomodation, I would take the inconvenience any day ...... for my dog's sake.

[DeltaCharlie]

I put the details on the other thread for my recommendations for titre testing in ACT.

Interestingly enough, while my regular vet may not be as knowledgeable on titre testing (hence my decision to use Kate Millhouse at Holistic Paws) she is the first to admit that she doesn't agree with giving dogs a KC vaccine and would prefer people take measures to prevent the spread (eg not allowing your dog to say hello to every other dog at the trial) and to see dog clubs remove communal drinking bowls. We have never had an issue with KC, even when it has been around, however, we also never allow our dogs to drink out of any container that isn't ours, we do not allow anyone else's dog to use our containers, and our dogs don't say hello to other dogs at training, trials etc. We only give an intranasal vacc to puppies and to older dogs who may be weaker and less able to fight it. Oh, and the few dogs that have got pet insurance as at least if they happen to contract it and require vet attention we can claim back on the associated vet costs.

[OSoSwift]

My 9 month old Dobe was fully vaccinated - 3 puppy vaccines and came back from a show in Perth, within 48 hours she was on a drip with what the vet believed to be Corona virus. My friends Dobe was fine. Bloody nasty it was too. They can get things that are not able to be vacc'd against.

If a dog is titred then I have no issue as long as the client understands that IF CC goes thorugh their dog MAY get a worse case of it than a vaccinated dog. The MAY also not get a bad case of it at all.

I would never and have never taken a dog out anywhere if I have suspected they may be carrying anything and I am sure most people would be the same.

[DeltaCharlie]

My 9 month old Dobe was fully vaccinated - 3 puppy vaccines and came back from a show in Perth, within 48 hours she was on a drip with what the vet believed to be Corona virus. My friends Dobe was fine. Bloody nasty it was too. They can get things that are not able to be vacc'd against.

They can actually vaccinate against coronavirus. Its included in the C7 vaccine, along with leptospirosis. My first dog Cody was given a C7 (with me naively believing the vet when she raved on about how much better they were than other vets because they gave the 7 and not the 5). Neither disease is commonly found around Sydney or Canberra so have never given a C7 since.

[Wundahoo]

My 9 month old Dobe was fully vaccinated - 3 puppy vaccines and came back from a show in Perth, within 48 hours she was on a drip with what the vet believed to be Corona virus. My friends Dobe was fine. Bloody nasty it was too. They can get things that are not able to be vacc'd against.

They can actually vaccinate against coronavirus. Its included in the C7 vaccine, along with leptospirosis. My first dog Cody was given a C7 (with me naively believing the vet when she raved on about how much better they were than other vets because they gave the 7 and not the 5). Neither disease is commonly found around Sydney or Canberra so have never given a C7 since.

I remember when the lepto/corona vaccine first became available in Australia there was much discussion regarding the combination of the two.

WSAVA and AVA class coronavirus vaccine in the "Not Recommended" category.

Lepto vaccine, if given should be repeated every 6 months and considering that this is only available in combination with the corona vaccine I think that it's not a good thing to be so frequently injecting an antigen which actually falls within the "not recommended" category.

In spite of the WSAVA's recommendations and categorisation of these two vaccines, the manufacturing company still persists in combining these two vaccines..... one that needs to be injected twice a year to be effective and the other that should only be used in exceptional circumstances. One has to ask why ??????

[DeltaCharlie]

My 9 month old Dobe was fully vaccinated - 3 puppy vaccines and came back from a show in Perth, within 48 hours she was on a drip with what the vet believed to be Corona virus. My friends Dobe was fine. Bloody nasty it was too. They can get things that are not able to be vacc'd against.

They can actually vaccinate against coronavirus. Its included in the C7 vaccine, along with leptospirosis. My first dog Cody was given a C7 (with me naively believing the vet when she raved on about how much better they were than other vets because they gave the 7 and not the 5). Neither disease is commonly found around Sydney or Canberra so have never given a C7 since.

I remember when the lepto/corona vaccine first became available in Australia there was much discussion regarding the combination of the two.

WSAVA and AVA class coronavirus vaccine in the "Not Recommended" category.

Lepto vaccine, if given should be repeated every 6 months and considering that this is only available in combination with the corona vaccine I think that it's not a good thing to be so frequently injecting an antigen which actually falls within the "not recommended" category.

In spite of the WSAVA's recommendations and categorisation of these two vaccines, the manufacturing company still persists in combining these two vaccines..... one that needs to be injected twice a year to be effective and the other that should only be used in exceptional circumstances. One has to ask why ??????

For $$$? Or is that me just being sceptical...

[Canine Coach]

I put the details on the other thread for my recommendations for titre testing in ACT.

Interestingly enough, while my regular vet may not be as knowledgeable on titre testing (hence my decision to use Kate Millhouse at Holistic Paws) she is the first to admit that she doesn't agree with giving dogs a KC vaccine and would prefer people take measures to prevent the spread (eg not allowing your dog to say hello to every other dog at the trial) and to see dog clubs remove communal drinking bowls. We have never had an issue with KC, even when it has been around, however, we also never allow our dogs to drink out of any container that isn't ours, we do not allow anyone else's dog to use our containers, and our dogs don't say hello to other dogs at training, trials etc. We only give an intranasal vacc to puppies and to older dogs who may be weaker and less able to fight it. Oh, and the few dogs that have got pet insurance as at least if they happen to contract it and require vet attention we can claim back on the associated vet costs.

I give a 1st C#3 vaccinate at 7 1/2 -8 weeks & again at 13 -14 weeks then again at 14 months with a C#3. I then titre

My dogs all go to dogs shows, trials, dog parks, beaches etc on a multiple times per week basis . My 15 year old was last vaccinated at 14 months & still has a very high titre.

FWIW, there MAY be dogs that are regularly vaccinated who for whatever reasons, have a low titre.

As an non Vet, I can only tentatively conclude that the dogs immune system get stimulated from constant exposure from being out & about. I am assuming that dogs that have limited regular exposure outside their own back yards are most at risk when suddenly kennelled.

I have never ever vaccinated for Kennel Cough. A few months ago, I babysat a dog that was mostly kept in back yard or walked in local streets on lead. This dog had been vaccinated yearly for Kennel Cough. The following morning after arriving I noticed the visiting dog had a loud hacking cough &vomited a small amount of foamy liquid. This dog had already slept in my room close to my dogs & drank from my own dog's water bowl played with them etc. Not one of my 4 dogs, (none vaccinated for K.C.),ranging from 15 years to 12 months, contracted a cough or any illness. I went to the chemist as instructed by my Vet & bought children's cough syrup. The visitor stopped coughing & was better in 3 days

[Canine Coach]

give a 1st C#3 vaccinate at 7 1/2 -8 weeks & again at 13 -14 weeks then again at 14 months with a C#3. I then titre

My dogs all go to dogs shows, trials, dog parks, beaches etc on a multiple times per week basis . My 15 year old was last vaccinated at 14 months & still has a very high titre.

FWIW, there MAY be dogs that are regularly vaccinated who for whatever reasons, have a low titre.

As an non Vet, I can only tentatively conclude that the dogs immune system get stimulated from constant exposure from being out & about. I am assuming that dogs that have limited regular exposure outside their own back yards are most at risk when suddenly kennelled.

I have never ever vaccinated for Kennel Cough. A few months ago, I babysat a dog that was mostly kept in back yard or walked in local streets on lead. This dog had been vaccinated yearly for Kennel Cough. The following morning after arriving I noticed the visiting dog had a loud hacking cough &vomited a small amount of foamy liquid. This dog had already slept in my room close to my dogs & drank from my own dog's water bowl played with them etc. Not one of my 4 dogs, (none vaccinated for K.C.),ranging from 15 years to 12 months, contracted a cough or any illness. I went to the chemist as instructed by my Vet & bought children's cough syrup. The visitor stopped coughing & was better in 3 days

[OSoSwift]

When I had my Dobe you couldn't get the corona vacc and when it came out it was regarded as not really working that well anyway so I still wouldn't have bothered. Having said that we didn't test her for corona just treated symptomatically.

[Erny]

give a 1st C#3 vaccinate at 7 1/2 -8 weeks & again at 13 -14 weeks then again at 14 months with a C#3. I then titre

Question on this ^ ^^^

Why not give the two routine puppy vaccinations and titre two weeks after to confirm sero-conversion? If sero-conversion is proven, why give another vaccination at 14 months of age?

[Canine Coach]

I believe in titre testing OR vaccinating with C #3 at 14 months. I am not a Vet It is just my somewhat educated "assumption" that the immune system is not fully developed at the time of the 2nd puppy C #3. IF the dog showed sufficient immunity at 14 months, I would not re-vaccinate. I would titre test again at 3 years & every 3 years after. JMHOFWIW

[Erny]

That's fair enough, CC. We all put in our thoughts and so many of them here are really excellent ones. So please understand I'm not arguing with your thoughts/opinions.

But I read or was told somewhere along the line that sero-conversion occurs two weeks after second vaccination (or it should) and that's the time to check via titre that it has occurred. If it hasn't, then a third puppy vaccination may be required, but if it has, the antibodies necessary for immunity will be there.

So my question (and not necessarily only to you, CC, for your thoughts on it, but to anyone …. Stormie?? …. reading here) is why is it a recommendation (and CC is not the only one to recommend 1st booster 12 months after last puppy vaccine - I'm pretty sure Dr Jean Dodds, for whose opinions I have the utmost of respect and revere) that the first annual booster be given and THEN titre?

Is it perhaps to save the expense of a titre?

But then, wouldn't one want to know sero-conversion after puppy vaccinations HAS occurred? Otherwise, it could be a whole year spent with no immunity ???

And then, if there is a chance of change during the maturity process, why not a titre first at the annual date instead of going straight to a booster? Again, is this a cost efficiency thing?

[Kanae]

After reading numerous publications and reports by Ronald D Schultz who is the professor and chair of pathobiological sciences at School of Veterinary Medicine advising that annual vaccines are unnecessary and his push towards the veterinary board to stop annual vaccinations in 1992 I decided I will not be vaccinating annually after the first 12 month vaccine. Instead I will be doing annual titre tests and if there is a drop in the tests only then will I vaccinate.

The AVA only recently changed vaccination requirements to every 3 years in 2009 but there has been no pressure for individual practices to comply, so many still pressure annual vaccines.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Kanae