Debarking Myths And Facts

[Rosetta]

For your own and your husband's stress levels I think It would be less stressful and expensive for you - and probably the dog - to try an anti barking collar on him first. I don't believe in debarking unless it is a last resort to the dog being put to sleep and I think it would be uncommon for that situation to arise. I think also people expect the procedure to result in absolute silence from the dog but the reality seems to be that the dog's "bark" may be even more annoying - though not as loud.

[Kavik]

I thought that you had to have a letter proving you had tried other things first, etc to get a vet to debark.

As others suggested, you could try more mental stimulation - trick training is great for this. I think there was a thread somewhere on trick training ideas. You can ask on this thread if you need suggestions. Also training for control positions or for 'down time' so he knows how and when to relax - on a dog bed or in a crate.

[persephone]

..and LOTS of 'be calm' training/trick training can be done indoors away from the heat, and the snakes ! :)

[OSoSwift]

I agree, even though you seem a bit cranky and defensive, that jhe needs more mental stimulation. Hide treats around the house, puzzle toys, treat dispensing balls etc. They are a very barky breeds and having had them in the kennels they do know how to bark and it can be very annoying. I would also suggest an antibarking collar before surgery. However if surgery becomes your only option then do it. Much less stress for everyone. When it cools down maybe lots of short walks will help provide him with mental stimulation.

[Kavik]

..and LOTS of 'be calm' training/trick training can be done indoors away from the heat, and the snakes ! :)

Yep, this is what I am doing with my dogs in the heat too :) Love trick training! (and it is even useful for agility with body awareness :laugh: )

[tikira]

The only dog I have met that was debarked sounded as though he had the worst sore throat ever. 5 minutes with him and it drove me nuts- I wanted to give him a strepsils! :)

Di

[yarracully]

Be aware that in NSW debarking can only be done after

(a) the council issues an order issued under section 21 of the Companion Animals Act 1998 requiring the owner of the dog to prevent it from barking, and

(b) a statutory declaration by the owner of the dog to the effect that, unless the operation is performed, the owner would need to have the dog destroyed so as to comply with the order.

Otherwise you are breaking the state law.

You can not just go and get it debarked. Basically you have to wait until the neighbours complain enough that the council provide a notice of intent that unless dealt with the dog will be removed. Then you have to try and get the order issued as some councils wont issue the order but instead will push for the dog to be removed. We had someone locally that had to surrender his dogs as the council would not consider an alternative and the whole issue was because the owner would not pay council land rates. So the council sort of decelred all out war on him.

Also be aware that some debarking only lowers the pitch and results in the low rasping noise mentioned in a prior post. However it can also result in total removal of any noise. We once had a dog that came to us from another show home and it had been debarked and it simply could not make any noise at all.

[Rosetta]

Another option may be to rehome him if possible - perhaps another rural property - rather than subject him to debarking.

[kelpiecuddles]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BARKGUARD-START-KIT-CITRONELLA-ANTI-BARK-SPRAY-STOP-BARKING-DOG-TRAINING-COLLAR-/330825608377?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item4d06be2cb9

It sounds like you are very stressed, I really do think you need to work out why he is barking but this might be an option to consider, I have found them very effective for my dogs that just bark for the sake of it. At $50 a bit more affordable too, the batteries and refills are also very cheap on ebay

[westiemum]

You sound like you are at your wits end. I'm sorry it's got to that point for you and your dog.

My old Westie Mac at almost 14 had uni-lateral tie-back surgery for laryngeal paralysis - it was life-saving to unblock his closed airway - but the side effect was it effectively de-barked him. He was never a problem barker but I used to be against de-barking surgery. But now I have a de-barked dog I've realised it's not such a big deal - particularly for my very old boy. He's still happy spritely, still highly communicative - he just rasps these days rather than barks.

So if you have genuinely tried everything and been really consistent with trying other methods and your vet agrees then I hope the tie-back surgery works for you. Just remember though, like all surgery it has risks including about an hour under GA - so inform yourself of all the risks and decide what you will do if the surgery fails before you go ahead as this type of surgery does fail - will you pay for the surgery again, put up with the barking or ? And as someone else said, go with an experienced vet only - this is tricky surgery - and if it was me I'd only use a specialist veterinary surgeon. But that's me.

There was a recent thread somewhere on problem barkers - and the opinion of some posters was there are dogs who simply love the sound of their own voices - they seem to be strong habitual almost instinctive barkers. We are living in closer and closer quarters, in cities and towns, and leading busy lives with long days at work. So maybe this will have to become a more acceptable solution in time. Do I like it? No. Do I understand it's sometimes necessary? Absolutely.

Good luck.

PS Mini's right - be careful how you post - you'll get great support here if you post carefully.

Edited February 6, 2014 by westiemum

[Salukifan]

I don't think debarking is the worst thing to happen to a dog (sure beats a bait) but there are hoops you have to jump through to do it lawfully and there is careful post recovery care that needs to be given to prevent scarring (and that raspy bark people hate).

That said, be aware that a dog that cannot bark to annoy you, also cannot effectively vocalise pain, alert you to strangers or to dangers like fire. That may not seem like a big deal but try locating a dog lost in bush that cannot bark to tell you where it is. We had to find a friend's dog in such circumstances - poor thing was strung up in blackberry and we were lucky to find her.

It is not a procedure that should be undertaken until all other avenues of controlling the barking have been exhausted and that's what the law requires.

[westiemum]

Be careful about using citronella collars on a long-term basis. My vet hates them - both he and my Mum have seen dogs totally shut down through their long term use. You solve the barking but can create an anxiety disorder which IMO is just as bad.

If you are going to try this sort of thing try an Adaptil collar and spray first - worked for my Andy. Or maybe one of the newer vibration collars. If you must use a citronella collar, then I suggest you don't use it long term, take it off the moment the barking subsides or the dog seems quiet, anxious or 'shut-down'.

Hope that helps.

[westiemum]

1391668100[/url]' post='6413970']

I don't think debarking is the worst thing to happen to a dog (sure beats a bait) but there are hoops you have to jump through to do it lawfully and there is careful post recovery care that needs to be given to prevent scarring (and that raspy bark people hate).

That said, be aware that a dog that cannot bark to annoy you, also cannot effectively vocalise pain, alert you to strangers or to dangers like fire. That may not seem like a big deal but try locating a dog lost in bush that cannot bark to tell you where it is. We had to find a friend's dog in such circumstances - poor thing was strung up in blackberry and we were lucky to find her.

It is not a procedure that should be undertaken until all other avenues of controlling the barking have been exhausted and that's what the law requires.

Good post HW - as usual.

[Aleksandra 157]

Also agree with HW and Westie Mum.I was in a similar position about ten years ago,very stressed after marriage breakup ,had to sell my house and move to a unit.At the time I had a Keeshond and a Japanese Spitz,both barkers.I had a wonderful vet who knew I was at breaking point as neighbors were complaining so she agreed ITC to debark them both.,rather than having them taken from me....unthinkable .The results were great.Problem solved,although bark slowly returned but much quieter.Ten years later I have a rough collie who when younger ran the fences,barking.Used a vibration collar twice and he doesn'tdoit now.I feel for all of you in this intense heat,and you also have all these other problems to deal with!I would go with anything that lightens the stress you are feeling.Good Luck! :)

Edited February 7, 2014 by Lulusuki

[mumof4girls]

I met a lady at agility who debarked a couple of rescues and they sounded raspy when they barked .. I've read it's a pretty gruesome surgery but I've never seen it done.. I would try a barking collar it's a lot cheaper and I think exercise / boredom is probably a factor also ..

Good luck .

[Aleksandra 157]

Mine definitely sounded raspy after debarking,and I only did it as a last resort.The vibration collar was much better,as any surgery ,debarking included ,is not without risk.I eventually lost my JS 2yrs ago after his heart stopped during a surgery to remove a small wart,I am now paranoid about my dogs having surgery,although I know was a very rare thing to happen.I agree lack of exercise will add to the barking.

[Erny]

Why does he bark? Is he bored, or wanting attention, or wanting to play?

Recently I think, from not getting enough exercise due to the 40+ c degree weather. Please read all of my post before you reply.

Roka - physical exercise is #2 priority. Mental exercise is the #1. It's the lack of mental exercise that creates boredom. Take for example, children. They can achieve physical AND mental exercise by playing outside, using their imaginations, etc. But they can also achieve mental exercise sitting in a chair, inactive physically, but colouring in pictures, playing board games etc. You can send a child out to the back yard to run around, but without something to think about in the process, that activity quickly becomes boring. Yet give a child something to think about and occupy their minds and boredom is pushed aside. Generally, you end up with a child who is mentally satiated and ready for rest. The same applies for dogs.

Although it is hot and that's not great weather for either yourself or your dog to go walking out in (and walking doesn't necessarily = sufficient mental stimulation), it doesn't stop you from being able to provide some mental stimulation to your dog through the teaching of tricks.

If it is only boredom that is the cause of the barking, frequent short sessions of trick training should make a huge difference.

The above would be far more appreciated by your dog as, if he is barking through boredom, you might render his voice box inefficient in "nuisance value" but you'll still have a dog that is bored, and that would hardly be fair on your dog.

I am one who believes debarking (via a well reputed Vet successfully experienced in the practice of debarking) as opposed to pts is the better option, but it is my thoughts that surgery should only be conducted if the causes for the barking have been well addressed.

Be aware about crossing boarders for the surgery (if this is what you eventually do) and make sure you are aware of your own State's laws and requisite bureaucratic processes for doing so.

It is likely different in the State you live in, but here in Victoria debarking is illegal. There has been incident of a person crossing the boarder for the sake of debarking by a reputable experienced Vet but unfortunately all the ticks and crosses for the required Victorian paperwork were inadvertently not met. The owner of the dogs (who were healthy and well looked after) was beset upon by the RSPCA with TV Crew in tow and the debarked dogs were seized from her and impounded to a shelter, leaving the owner to the indeterminably long process of fighting through the Courts to get them back. I am unaware of the ending of that story. The "catch" in the law in this State was that the owner exhibited one or more of the debarked dogs and it was that and ONLY that which gave the right for the RSPCA to seize the dogs, not because of any cruelty prosecution. So you need to be wary of fine print.

But please do address the cause for the barking. There might be a more reasonably simple solution than you realise and overall, far better and healthier (physically AND mentally speaking) for your dog than being debarked.

I don't think anyone has been rude or discourteous to you in response to your query and the posts I've read are only the thoughts of those who expected the insights to their opinions may assist, particularly as it is seems that you have your dog's best interests at heart.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Erny

[persephone]

My dog is a small dog (JRT x Mini Foxy) and will bark at anything that seems a threat of which there are many here including SNAKES. Just the other day a brown snake came slithering towards his kennel and he barked up a storm which I am very grateful for. He seems to be wanting to warn me of dangers that come near to the house.

and appropriate training MAY help with some of this barking ... it is not his job to protect you - he should feel secure that you will protect him . barking when a snake is seen can be useful, yes .. but barking at strange noises/people/animals is unnecessary .

What have you tried in the way of training to make things quieter?

I know it can be frustrating trying to fiund something that works !

[mita]

I met a lady at agility who debarked a couple of rescues and they sounded raspy when they barked ..

The first pitch-reduced dogs that I met, I didn't know it. Two tibbies owned by show people who lived in the suburbs. Their voices were husky, rather than raspy... & (silly me!) commented on what sexy voices they had. I realize that's just one case, but their voices sounded pleasant.

[Christina]

If you want to debark him go ahead and do it. You don't need a forum of strangers to give you their blessings.

This seems to be the reply you want to hear.

For me personally I would not debark a dog if no one had complained.

I also live rural on a half an acre. I don't let my dogs out alone in snake season & don't have kennels or anything around snakes could hide in or crawl under.

Being a quiet & isolated area with not much outside activity my dogs also bark at anything outside that moves. A bird landing on the step is much cause for a good mad yapping session

They understand the word quiet & will obey most the time but not always instantly depending on what the stimulant is.

When I lived in the city my dogs were not like this. Too much trouble to bark at every sound I think. Training is possible but sounds like you are too overwhelmed with everything to try this. Guess you will debark if that is what you really want to do.