Dog Wont Eat

[Erny]

Erny - how do you get wormers into him?

That's what I put in the sardine - inside peanut paste or cream cheese.

I don't give wormers as a standard regime. In fact, I just don't give them. I have his stools checked for worms now and then - the checks have always come up negative, so why administer chemicals when there's no need? Hair-dna sample did come up as showing a low level worm burden (dogs systems are designed to deal with this) and so I just used natural herbal treatment to deal with parasites.

But with other tablets (he's hypothyroid, so has a thyroxine tablet twice a day) I taught Mandela to accept the tablet, just as I might teach a dog any "trick". I say "take a tablet?" and he'll trot over and assume position in the kitchen (i.e. a sit, happily to attention). I have tablet in my hand, stand next to him and say again "take a tablet" and he opens his mouth. I pop the tablet on his tongue. If I mis-aim the tablet (e.g. it sits too far to the front end of his tongue, or to the side), I say "swallow" and he'll swallow and poke his tongue (as though like an air-lick) in response. He then gets a treat from the fridge (a piece of sweet potato).

I don't hide anything. He never mistrusts what I'm giving him. He's never learnt to. And even though it might be something that doesn't taste great, it's always been a pre-cursor to something positive, whether that be a yummy treat, his dinner, or a yummy treat followed by a walk or a drive in the car. I have done similar routine when I've had to syringe natural herbal medicines to him. Different command (i.e. "in your corner"). This is also what I do when I have to deal with an ear issue - that's one thing he hates and he doesn't exactly trot eagerly to assume the "position" for that, but he does assume it. And everything of that nature is ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL followed up by something special nice. But I've never tricked him into anything. He's honest, and I return the honour.

BUT - please don't misunderstand. The above is the way I prefer it to be and it is the ideal. Some may be more difficult or have learnt differently and then it can be less stressful for them if they are happy to swallow something that is sugar-coated with something yummy. This can be a problem, though, if your dog at any time isn't hungry or feels unwell enough to want to refuse food.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Erny

[Queen Maeby]

I don't give wormers as a standard regime. In fact, I just don't give them. I have his stools checked for worms now and then - the checks have always come up negative, so why administer chemicals when there's no need? Hair-dna sample did come up as showing a low level worm burden (dogs systems are designed to deal with this) and so I just used natural herbal treatment to deal with parasites.

Me too. Since I've been doing it my Pug has had no signs of any parasites at all, not even an egg!

[Poodle wrangler]

Agree that if he's both underweight and not eating, he needs some investigations by the vet.

When you say 'really skinny', does vet agree?

(some people's idea of skinny can be normal, lean weight)

Can you see more than a couple of ribs when he's wet?

Weight in kg?

If you look in his mouth, is there anything obviously wrong with teeth etc?

Intestistinal worming up to date?

This is my 2nd standard poodle and neither have been big eaters.

Both active and bouncy, though. They sometimes vomit. Normal.

They're smart dogs.

He might train YOU to give only his favourite food?

Mine prefer fresh meat and have kibble as last resort only.

They will eat it though and not be underweight.

It's not normal for a healthy dog to eat nothing for 4 days unless ill.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Thanks Erny

I don't think I could persuade my dog to eat a canex wormer as a treat. I haven't managed training her to yawn or bow on command and she does those things of her own accord but the wormer - even I don't like the smell of it.

She does like to sniff forage in the park, at the beach etc so she probably does get worms - tho there is no sign of them in the worm tablet pink poos I check. And we do spend time on farms occasionally.

I haven't managed to train her not to forage either. I think that might involve some work with a head halter so I can "control the environment".

She isn't all that honest either. She routinely fibs when she wants off lead - because I like to let her off to play with other dogs, but not to forage. So she pretends she wants to play with other dogs - the whole play bow routine, with the other dog responding... and then she ignores it and go-sniffs. Sigh.

[Erny]

Thanks Erny

I don't think I could persuade my dog to eat a canex wormer as a treat. I haven't managed training her to yawn or bow on command and she does those things of her own accord but the wormer - even I don't like the smell of it.

The tablet is not the treat. It's the taking of the tablet that earns the treat/reward that follows. THAT's the difference. Numerous of the stuff I've had to administer to my dog in the past tastes yuck. But he'll take it at my bidding. I didn't teach him to yawn (in fact I wouldn't want him to or he might inhale the tablet). I began mechanically by using my hands to open his mouth, weaned off use of my hands and during the process, added the cue words.

She isn't all that honest either. She routinely fibs when she wants off lead - because I like to let her off to play with other dogs, but not to forage. So she pretends she wants to play with other dogs - the whole play bow routine, with the other dog responding... and then she ignores it and go-sniffs. Sigh.

I disagree with the above. It's not that she's being dishonest at all. You have taught her that play bow routine responses to other dogs etc. gets her off the lead to do what she wants (whether that be play with other dog or forage). It's as simple as that - nothing hidden on her part. :)

Why don't you like her foraging?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Erny

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Erny

I didn't mean yawn for a treat... I meant Yawn for tooth / mouth inspection like you see critters do at the zoo. If a seal can do it - surely my dog can (tho the seal might have a better trainer).

So you train the tablet taking a bit like training for accepting claw trims... I'm not sure - I guess I can't imagine me eating something horrid to get something yum. I admit I did try this with my horse (when I had him) eat worm paste - get apple. But I never managed to train him to be nice about it.

[Erny]

Think of the "guide show place" method of teaching a dog to shake paw.

Grab paw, hold it up, and treat. Repeating and eventually weaning off the "grab" component and encouraging the dog to present the paw.

That is in part how what my dog does, started. I would gently prise open his jaws, and pop in a tasty treat. This became easier and easier as he WANTED to receive the treat. On the times that it was not the treat that he received (i.e. when it was a tablet instead) I was very fast to follow it up with a tasty treat (it was already on the bench at hand, even though he might not have been aware of it).

Teaching him to swallow (or "show me you've swallowed) came about a bit later, but not too much later. I would have my hand cupped under his chin to hold it upwards a bit and gently blow on his nose (this provokes the swallow/lick response). Weaned off the blowing on his nose and simultaneously taught him the word association with what is now the command "swallow".

Now it doesn't much matter that it's only a tablet in my hand. He very much looks forward to me saying the words "take a tablet?" as for him it is like performing a trick that he's guaranteed to be rewarded for.

If he spits a tablet (which is usually because I've mis-aimed it and not paid attention) I ask him to "take a tablet" pointing to the tablet that is by then on the floor. This "trick" is not 100% successful because we don't get to practice it too often. He tends to slam his paw on the tablet or, if he picks it up with his mouth he then spits and tosses it to me :laugh: .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

On the times that it was not the treat that he received (i.e. when it was a tablet instead) I was very fast to follow it up with a tasty treat

You didn't offer him the choice? Is this not akin to me and the sardine trick?

I missed the guide paw thing with shake hands because she uses her paws a lot to grab my hand and put it on her tummy for belly rubs. And we just modified that to a more refined handshake followed by a belly rub. She likes to swat me on the head too - cos that gets me up in the morning for some reason... tho her sitting by the back door and groaning would have the same effect - possibly faster. She only does that when she's about to explode.

[Erny]

ERNY :

On the times that it was not the treat that he received (i.e. when it was a tablet instead) I was very fast to follow it up with a tasty treat

MRR :

You didn't offer him the choice? Is this not akin to me and the sardine trick?

Of course it's his choice. His choice to bounce into the kitchen spot where the tablet is given. His choice to throw himself into a sit (with a smile on his face) eagerly awaiting the next step (i.e. open mouth to receive tablet). His choice was to spit the tablet if that's what he wanted. He just doesn't get a reward if he doesn't take it. Yes - the choice is offered. And it wasn't too long before he began to volunteer to open his mouth, without persuasion.

Remind me what you do with the sardine trick?

I missed the guide paw thing with shake hands because she uses her paws a lot to grab my hand and put it on her tummy for belly rubs. And we just modified that to a more refined handshake followed by a belly rub. She likes to swat me on the head too - cos that gets me up in the morning for some reason... tho her sitting by the back door and groaning would have the same effect - possibly faster. She only does that when she's about to explode.

I was only using the shake paw example as a "principal" behind the training that taught my dog what I needed him to do. Great that you taught your dog shake paw a different way. I taught my boy a different way for shake paw as well.

[persephone]

:) my dogs used to only hear a tablet bottle rattle and they were THERE - sitting, tails going madly ..I could give them pretty much anything..and follow it with a treat , and they'd be happy . I had to really be careful when taking my own meds .... "be vewwy vewwy quiet..."

[Erny]

:) my dogs used to only hear a tablet bottle rattle and they were THERE - sitting, tails going madly ..I could give them pretty much anything..and follow it with a treat , and they'd be happy . I had to really be careful when taking my own meds .... "be vewwy vewwy quiet..."

:laugh: That happens here too. It's so much easier, as if they aren't well and don't want to eat, they still seem to get a *buzz* out of the tablet exercise and some other non-food reward that follows. IOW, the motivation to take the tablet doesn't have to be food or the wanting of food. It's also good for when you still have to give a medication but because of impending anaesthetic, aren't supposed to give any food beforehand.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[Rascalmyshadow]

I would get your dog checked by another vet just to be sure, but in my experience with poodles it is quite a common trait to barely eat until they mature and finish growing, I have had a few that were the same, tends to be the more finely built ones that are prone to under eating.

[chocchook]

HI sorry I have not got back to anyone my computer crashed and I had to get a knew one. Well I have taken Fanta to another vet and she was great. She said he was anorexic. He is real skinny weight is 16.8kg all his ribs stick out his spine and hip bones stick out as well. She did blood and urine test. Everything came back normal which the vet was surprised. She wants to do a xray to see the size of his liver which will be done next week. On the good side Fanta is eating a little bit most nights. We are giving him tin tuna and I cook fresh fish for him. I have put him on supercoat sensitive biscuits. These don't contain any meat products its fished based. He has only vomited once eating this and he has stopped eating grass. So it seems he has problems with meat. I have tried him on BBQ chicken he would eat it but then he would vomit then I could not get him to eat it again. Will keep everyone posted on his progress.

Cheers Sharon

[persephone]

I'm glad you gave us an update - and hope the different vet can help. if he can eat fish .. that's good - there are quite a few foods with fish!

:)

[chocchook]

Update on Fanta. Went back to the vet yesterday to do the xray she wanted to do. Vet was so happy with him he has put on 3kg in the last 6 weeks which is fantastic. Vet decided that he did not need to do xray cause he is doing so well. So it looks like he is allergic to all meats. We are feeding him tin tuna with supercoat sensitive biscuits. Vet also wants us to give him sardines twice a week. She gave him a steroid injection and a mulit vitamin injection. He still has a way to go but looks like we have gotten to the bottom of his problem.

Cheers Sharon

[BC Crazy]

Great news... at least you have found the cause of the problem. Now you can adjust diet to suit. Sounds like your managing very well as Fanta has been gaining weight already & is doing well :)

[mish13]

Hi Sharon, I so feel your pain because I have a similar problem. I have an 11 year old standard poodle ( the white one in my avatar) that won't eat. Oscar was diagnosed with Sebaceous Adenitis about three years ago. He now has his gums growing over his bottom teeth, which the vet assures me is not painful when he eats.

Its all part of the disease and the medication he is on, but all that aside he just went off his food about six months ago. He always sat at 30kgs but has now dropped to 25kg and has stayed at that.

I have tried Satin Balls and he wouldn't touch them, the hardest part is what he likes today he won't touch tomorrow. He has had all the blood tests and there is no reason why he has gone off his food except for what I said above.

My vet has said give him what ever we can get him to eat, so far he will eat Frankfurt's,, Goodo's dog roll and tin dog food. I know these things are not the best but I feel helpless when he won't eat. Some times he will eat a brisket bone or a chicken neck, BBQ chicken, grated cheese. He gets a premium dry food but doesn't touch it much, tried Hills from the vet but he didn't like that.

I have five dogs and he is feed with my other two poodles, he will happily walk away and give them his food.

I will pay close interest to this thread and I wish you luck with the health of your poodle.

[chocchook]

Just another follow up on Fanta. Well he is not eating as well as he was. Spoke to the vet again and she has given him another steroid injection and another multi vitamin injection. She wants to keep an eye on his weight. Im not really sure what we can do for him now. Real worried. In the last two weeks he has lost 300gms which does not seem much but its a real worry to me.

Cheers Sharon

[Erny]

I'm not saying to do this, because it has to be your judgement call .... but I can tell you that I went through quite a few different "diets" with my boy as well. He'd go off one, I'd try another. Sometimes I'd have a bit of success (i.e. at least eating, if not enthusiastic) and sometimes I'd think I'd found the answer (i.e. enthusiastic eating, weight gain as a result, symptoms appearing to abate and matters evening out). As it turned out, the closer I got to a diet which was to suit him the best, the longer he would last on it before he'd turn off it and symptoms blew out again.

I had run the gauntlet with blood tests and also with the (then new) saliva test via Dr Jean Dodds in USA. The results of that came back leaving me with pretty much no meat protein that my dog would tolerate.

My boy had by then turned away from every meat protein source I could think of to try him on (each one by one, and for a term).

As a last resort, I had him on Hills Prescription Z/D (cans and dry). He eventually stopped eating the dry, but at least the canned stuff kept him going. But over a period of months, he went off this as well (personally I don't blame him and was surprised he lasted that long). At that point, I simply didn't know what I could feed him. I'd tried the various meats raw and cooked (desperate times call for desperate measures); tried the inclusion of yoghurt and all those otherwise *yummy good things*. No go. And he was skinny ..... AND hungry. He WANTED to eat and was mostly enthusiastic when he knew I was preparing something for him (save for when he was feeling nauseous), but I'd present it, he'd go to eat it, perhaps he'd lick at it ..... and then he'd forlornly walk away from it.

That's when I saw something on Augustine's Approved. I really didn't believe it would be any of much difference - he'd been on roo mince before and that had been one of the last diet bases he'd been on before the Z/D when, after about 10 months, he turned off it. But with no other options in front of me, I felt I could do naught else but give it a try.

I sourced human grade roo mince, combined it with the AA suggested vegetable ingredients as well as the AA SuperBoost. His gusto for eating like there was no tomorrow returned and for the most part (save for a couple of days in more recent times, when his stomach became uncomfortable again .... but then it righted) has been on this and just as enthusiastically eating for at least 2 years. I never thought I'd be so happy and relieved to have my 'woof it down like a hoover' dog back to that again!! He's not *right* yet and I'm still investigating stuff, but his stools immediately improved and are good, skin outbreak symptoms receded and are far less frequent and severe. I'm still investigating (as aforementioned) but without finding this "diet" regime, I doubt he'd have survived this long.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Erny

[Rappie]

She did blood and urine test. Everything came back normal which the vet was surprised.

Has the vet entertained the idea of hypoadrenocorticism (Addison's disease)? Poodles are predisposed and the absence of any clinical findings may be significant in a sick dog as normally you would see some changes in the bloods due to stress / cortisol release. It is something I would consider particularly with a good response to steroid treatment.