Behaviour Issues

[AngryTardis]

Hi, I'm new.

We have a border collie/kelpie/smithfield boy turning two this week.

Will try to keep story short and mods please move if I've chosen the wrong space to put this in please.

We were sold a farm (not puppy farm but working farm with cows and stuff) puppy and told he was 8 weeks old, discovered later he was 5 weeks old - too young to leave his mama, too young to have learned "dog". Came from a family of nine puppies - one of whom has been already put down due to aggression issues, have met several of his siblings who are all having similar issues - responding out of the blue to any situation with fear and aggression. Have since spoken to a few people who run cattle and sheep and they've bred border collie/smithfield crosses because they want the aggression of the smithfield to temper the gentleness of the border collie **quote unquote**

We think we can pinpoint when our boy started to play up. He was seven months old when we moved house to a five acre place. The owner "forgot" to tell us he was still building. There were no fences and so our boy had to be tethered as there was a public access way just below the property and he was immediately very clear it was part of his territory and would bail up ANYTHING using it. After six months there we discovered the building crew found his incessant barking when they were working and he was tethered really annoying and had been threatening him with power tools and stuff to rile him up. This didn't happen frequently but obviously enough to completely freak him out.

We've moved again, so two moves in his short life to a well fenced but small place in the city. Three houses away there is a dog off leash park that is huge, there is access to a beach down the road which is also a dog off leash area.

Ruffin's "good" points - he has absolutely no prey drive, he's super bright and loves to please and will put up with any amount of "love" from the kids from wrestling to racing to the four year old. He's never resorted to chewing or destroying any of our stuff - we can leave shoes, toys, clothes, whatever on the floor or sofas. He's never stolen food off the table or benches even though the kids leave stuff out. He's an indoor dog who quickly toilet trained and holds on till morning. We have had to very occasionally leave him for up to seven or eight hours alone in the house and there's no mess to clean up, just a dog that needs a good walk and lots of cuddles.

Ruffin's "points of concern" - he thinks he's the alpha when it comes to people coming into our house. We've worked hard with him and a dog trainer to reduce his reactions on walks to people, cyclists, motorbikes, kayaks, people in wheelchairs, wearing burkhas, baseball caps, hats in general, vans, especially other dogs. He's now transferred a LOT of that reaction to anyone coming in our front door. He's nipped and snarled at their heels, barks incredibly aggressively. We've responded by shoving into the bedroom closest to the front door and then opening the door after our visitors are down in the kitchen. He's also bitten my 13 year old when she was walking him and he wanted to get another dog across the road and she refused to let him - he left a fairly massive bruise on her leg. He didn't get his way, she just ignored him and kept walking. He pulled the same stunt with my husband who pushed him into a submissive position and the result of that was Ruffin ignored the dog he'd been trying to get the next time it passed us. He's NEVER tried to bite me or force me to allow him to do what he wants to do but he's ignored my commands when I've brought people into the house and rushed round me to nip at the visitor. He knows immediately that he's done wrong. But he's still doing it. He's not used his teeth, nor has he bruised them, just scared the heck out of them - yesterday it was a sleep over child who had already been in the house with his mum and was coming back from the park with my son.

I'm finding it really hard to like him to be honest. I'm frustrated that he keeps pushing boundaries and keeps trying to rise to the top of the pack. He's a fine, intelligent dog, with lots going for him but I'm really sick and tired of having to listen to him throw tantrums in the back yard when we have visitors because he's of the opinion that he's entitled to come in, tell them he's boss and be the centre of attention.

I'm really keen for some suggestions on how to get it through to him that it's absolutely NOT his job to allow/disallow visitors into our home. He's VERY vocal if the children are first to the door and attempt to prevent him and snaps and snarls at them - they just ignore him and make him follow through.

One suggestion from the trainer was to keep him on command and on lead at home at all times till he does exactly what he's told to do - we've found this incredibly difficult to do. Are there any other options? Have him on lead while visitors are here?

I really dislike the tension that the whole family feels when we have unexpected visitors.

[persephone]

:(

What a stressful life for everyone.

Having a dog who bites/threatens humans is not on.

I am not about to comment on whether his behaviour is "trying to be alpha" ..or is coming from somewhere else- that is for a professional to personally judge.

I will say that you need the BEST assessment possible for this dog who is now becoming mature ..and is at a crossroads, and is dangerous.

having siblings with aggression problems points to a genetic component .. and he was perhaps dealt a very poor blow in teh gene pool It seems he has some very good behaviours too :) That makes the aggression even more upsetting.

I don't know tassie ..so cannot recommend anyone ... but know you are considering the options , including euthanasia .

Trouble is with putting him on lead/in another room/.muzzling ..is that it's all "bandaid" and bandaids come off unexpectedly .

Hopefully someone will suggest a reputable and professional person in Tas for you , who can assist you at this awful time.

[Kavik]

What a difficult situation

You should definitely seek out professional help.

I agree that if siblings are also exhibiting aggression that there is possibly a genetic component, and being taken away from mum so young wouldn't help.

[AngryTardis]

Yes to bandaids.

I can't ALWAYS be first to the door, I can't ALWAYS be the person at the other end of the lead.

That's what is concerning me the most. Our dog trainer is back in two weeks and we'll do another intensive session with her - her suggestions for out and about have wreaked small miracles in that we are able to walk him into town and he is calm and relaxed **mostly** even with other people around as long as he's on lead.

But the tension of being "on point" and "on watch" for me and for my husband is exhausting and upsetting. The dog obviously picks up on our tension and I think it's set up a vicious circle.

Thank you for the lack of judgement.

Husband is keen to get him to dog training classes but I can't imagine he'd be able to focus on the training because of all the other dogs there.

He does have a few dogs that he's happy and relaxed around and he also "holidays" with our friends who run a working farm and he fits right in happily there. He also "lets" that family into our house and a few other people but the unpredictability is what's doing my head in. His reactions obviously make sense to him but to me they are random and worrisome.

[korbin13]

Have you thought of crating him while he is in the house? Just while you work out some of his issues.

Personally I would be following Susan Garretts Ruff Love but that can also be rather intensive and time consuming, but at least the dog is crated when not being trained and you can relax a bit.

And I would be teaching him to go to his crate when the door is knocked on or when the bell is pushed, but once again this takes time and patience. Not saying you don't have it but you have been through the wringer.

Maybe a different behaviourist?

Don't beat yourself up either if you have to go down the euthanasia path.

Just some suggestions, no one can diagnose over the internet and we don't know you and your limitations but you sound like you are really trying.

Good luck with it all.

[Queen Maeby]

I don't know tassie ..so cannot recommend anyone ...

Hopefully someone will suggest a reputable and professional person in Tas for you , who can assist you at this awful time.

How about Aidan2 (sorry to put you in it Aidan :laugh: )? He's a DOL member, a dog trainer and he's in Tasmania. If he can't help, maybe he might know someone who can??

Edited February 2, 2014 by puggedforlife

[Guest Ams]

I would pts.

You have a weak character dog (known as a proportion of the litter have similar/same issues), you selected a dog bred for working who currently doesn't have a job as you have moved into suburbia and he has negative connotations for strangers (not your fault). Also, his behaviour towards family members is not ideal (redirecting his aggression onto your daughter and snaps and snarls at the children if they reach the door first).

Whilst the dog is displaying these behaviours I would caution against inviting children over for sleepovers. You know it is aggressive/reactive to strangers and there is a high chance of a child being injured. It is not a good place to be in. I have been there and my dog at the time was not known for aggressive behaviours but was injured and reacted when the child accidentally fell on it. It didn't make me feel better sitting in the emergency room of the hospital waiting for the child to be treated.

It sounds like the trainer you have consulted with is using Ceasar Milan style training - ie :Alpha in the household and your husband rolled the dog to gain obedience. I note it was a trainer and not a behaviourist who is working with you. They are two different levels of qualification although you may be substituting one for the other. A behaviourist may be able to work with you to curb these behaviours over a long period of time but in the meantime you are placing your family and friends at risk of being bitten by this dog. A nip is still considered a bite if it breaks skin.

Owning a dog is meant to be a rewarding experience not a life challenge. If you don't want to pts I see there is a 'rescue' in Tas that breeds these dogs and doesn't mind rehoming dogs that require a muzzle. I won't post a link but it won't be too hard to find them.

[Nekhbet]

I think your management and reaction has been a bit wrong. I can see why he's doing what he's doing, but I can see the holes in the training allowing him to do that.

Can you email or message me with how you do things so I can give you some suggestions?

[Aidan3]

Hi AngryTardis, I'm in Hobart and I'm sure I can help. He sounds untrained and anxious from your description. PM me if you'd like to discuss.

I run classes for reactive, anxious and aggressive dogs on Saturday mornings in Rosny.

[Cosmolo]

I would absolutely get in touch with Aidan2- I'm sure he'll be able to help you.

[megan_]

See Aidan and in the meantime please don't let a child walk this dog. Also either don't have people over or put him in a locked room ( so the 4 year old doesn't accidentally let him out ) or a covered crate in the interim. Also, tethering tends to build up frustration . Is there anyway he can have a dog run instead?

I'd see Aidan and if I wasn't comfortable that the dog could be rehabilitated. ( not just managed) then if he was mine he'd be going to heaven (if I had small kids etc)

[persephone]

I'd see Aidan and if I wasn't comfortable that the dog could be rehabilitated. ( not just managed) then if he was mine he'd be going to heaven (if I had small kids etc)

yes.

best of luck .

[Nekhbet]

The dog redirected onto the child under high stress, which is a mistake on the owners behalf. If the dog is good with the family it sounds like the family needs proper advice to manage and train the dog, not suggestions of euthanasia.

I know a person in Tas who had problems with his dog and he went all over to try and find a school that would provide a proper training environment for a dog that wasn't a roll over rover. He ended up being asked to leave or left himself when the trainers went to put their hands over the dogs head to 'test' it.

[Aidan3]

I've not knocked anyone back, he's welcome to contact me.

None of the clubs here are suitable for a dog like that.

[AngryTardis]

Will pm you Aidan.

and yes, euthanasia has been considered. He's nervous, very strongly attached to his pack and I can't imagine rehoming him with a new human(s) would cause him anything other than extreme stress. I'd rather be the one holding him while the green dream worked than handing him over to a stranger and him to possibly die alone.

I'm fairly sure there are all kinds of "wrong" ways to react, just like every child we have responds differently to stress situations.

I"m keen to have this sorted before he's 2 one way or the other.

BTW, he's tethered if we have kids for sleep overs just to assuage any concern from the forum.

[Salukifan]

Will pm you Aidan.

This is the same Aidan I recommended for you in your introduction thread. :)

Edited February 2, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Steph M]

No advice but plenty of sympathy. Your life is being run by this dog and that must be rough. I can see why he's hard to like. I have to say for me he would be too much of a liability. In a dog so young there's a lot of years of management there.

Keep us all posted. You must be exhausted.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I think a crate would def. make your life easier, tethering isn't a great option for a dog like this.

I am sure that Aidan will be a great help to you and wish you the best of luck.

[Rosetta]

I feel sorry for this dog and hope he can get the proper training to bring him into line. Perhaps the tethering and the teasing by the workman started him on this path and it is not a matter of weak temperament. Lets hope so and a different trainer will be able to rehabilitate him for the family's sake as well as his.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Angry tardis

your dog sounds like a normal cattle dog cross to me - with extra dose of cattle dog - they're not called heelers (nip heels of moving critters) for nothing.

I would absolutely get Aidan to help.

I would not use food treats - well for my dog, she loves food and she will act naughty (aggressive) then act calm - to get the treat. Especially when I was using a treat to distract / lure her attention off the lawn mower man.

Cattle dogs attacking men with power tools or lawn mowers or whipper snippers is very very common. I used to live with a cattle dog who had a great scar down the side of his face from where he bit a chainsaw while it was going.

The way I deal with it is to use some trick training - with no food - at a distance sufficient she knows the machine distraction is there - but she can still pay attention to me quite easily (set up for success).

If I use food - the excited aggressive behaviour I don't want - gets worse. Susan Garrett uses food to calm a dog down (like how you feel after Christmas dinner) but it winds my dog up. So if I'm trying to get calm behaviour, I reward with long slow pats, ear rubs, and tail rubs etc.

Herding dogs are only supposed to chase or heel with permission. But you do have to have to train that consistently, ideally from little. If you can anticipate when your dog is going to go over the top (stop listening to you) - do what you can to prevent.

Crate training is excellent for this. Mine loves her crate. She knows when she's in it - it's not her job to protect me or anything else, and that I trust whomever I'm with. If I don't trust the person - I keep her on short lead next to me. Including opening the front door to strangers. Works really well on door to door salesman - but she has no opportunity to do them any damage. They always leave when I ask them to :)

The handy thing about a cattle dog - is they're very clever and they learn fast. This super smart brain is also what the dog uses to train you if you're not careful.

I had to learn all new ways of training the dog I have now because unlike all the previous cattle dogs I've lived with - that could learn from punishment - this one is super soft (I suspect she has some border collie or kelpie in the mix if she's not all stumpy tail). If I did any of the usual punishments like alpha rolls, slaps on nose or even raise a fist at her - she would roll over and become like floppy jelly. All she knew was I was upset with her. She never made any connection to anything she'd done (like biting me).

If the bite she did on your child was a heeling nip - its common in cattle dogs and you can train that out ie a behaviour not to be done on humans or their pet cats etc. If she savaged the child's calf muscle and ripped half the flesh off - that's something different. Given the child was able to keep walking and ignore - I'm thinking "nip". What I used to do was stand super still - takes the fun out of the "chase the boss" game. She could only play chase the boss if she didn't put her teeth on me. And we avoid "chase the dog" games because that just makes catching her really difficult.

So until you get Aidan in - for now I would prevent as much as I could anticipate of the bad behaviour. Put her somewhere vistors and children do not have access or are unlikely to go. Do not let children run in the house when she's there. But if you can manage five minutes of dog on lead - so she can't chase and a bit of distraction training - where the children run by - just enough to get her interest but she remains calm - so you can reward with an ear rub... and as she gets good at that, increase the level of distraction - very very slowly one bit per day.

My dog picks up on how I feel about other people and dogs I see. I get a bit angry about people doing the wrong thing or dogs that pull or harass me or my dog, and puppy mill specials that launch at me and my dog when we're walking. My dog knows... and she will tell them all off for me if I let her.

At the moment I manage this by telling her she's a good dog for being calm (no food), blocking her if she goes off ie hold her collar and block her view of the dodgy dog and owner. Asking her for a drop stay up front if I see a potential problem coming - and telling her she's a good dog for holding the stay and paying attention to me - not the potential problem. often a happy "good dog" tone from me calms her and the other dog both - and it goes much better than if I "scold" her for signs of aggression. And scolding with me is pretty mild "what do you think you're doing?" in an offended tone is about it. But that's enough for her to decide the other dog is to blame and needs a proper yelling at from her.

I second having a dog run, crate or room he can be in rather than tying him up. Tying a dog up and then exponsing him to distractions can lead to something called "The opposition reflex" which gets a dog even more wound up. However you can sort of train around that with something called "Triangle of Temptation" - see K9pro.com.au training articles. I did TOT without tying my dog up - just asked for gradually extended stays in front of dinner until I have a very rock solid stay from her. Tying her up has always been bad for us. But she's reasonable about it now. I'd just rather put her in a crate and pretty sure she prefers that too. Protects her from savage children, dogs and building contractors.

good luck with your dog. use his smarts to work for you.