Titre Testing

[Erny]

Even with the dogs that are covered by petplan, I am not going to vaccinate them. The whole point of titre testing is to give you the confidence that your dog has immunity and will not contract the disease even if it came in contact with it. Given that, why would I vaccinate to ensure they are insured for a disease I am confident they should have immunity for anyway? Does that make sense?

Perfect sense, DC. In fact, given that we are weakening immune systems by an overload of vaccine, the Insurance Companies should be embracing the idea of and accepting titres with open arms.

KC is a different story, even though I see it as unnecessary I am considering getting Whip re-vaccinated for it as that way if he happens to contract it and requires veterinary attention I can claim the expenses. Delta and Charlie are not insured so I won't give it to them. Shock is still covered by her puppy vaccs at this point in time.

What would be the likely expense of treatment for CC though?

What I mean by the above is that there is no treatment for CC itself. That's a matter of letting it run its course. But if it was to develop to secondary infection, I could imagine the cost of a vet visit and antibiotic.

Under my insurance plan, I have to pay for the first $100 anyway. So, if it is brought down only to cost and the exclusion of whether we are doing the right thing by administering vaccines unnecessarily, is there really any benefit to vaccinating for CC (which would involve a Vet consult fee and out-of-pockets for the vaccine) for the sake of maintaining insurance cover?

[minimax]

Even with the dogs that are covered by petplan, I am not going to vaccinate them. The whole point of titre testing is to give you the confidence that your dog has immunity and will not contract the disease even if it came in contact with it. Given that, why would I vaccinate to ensure they are insured for a disease I am confident they should have immunity for anyway? Does that make sense?

Perfect sense, DC. In fact, given that we are weakening immune systems by an overload of vaccine, the Insurance Companies should be embracing the idea of and accepting titres with open arms.

KC is a different story, even though I see it as unnecessary I am considering getting Whip re-vaccinated for it as that way if he happens to contract it and requires veterinary attention I can claim the expenses. Delta and Charlie are not insured so I won't give it to them. Shock is still covered by her puppy vaccs at this point in time.

What would be the likely expense of treatment for CC though?

What I mean by the above is that there is no treatment for CC itself. That's a matter of letting it run its course. But if it was to develop to secondary infection, I could imagine the cost of a vet visit and antibiotic.

Under my insurance plan, I have to pay for the first $100 anyway. So, if it is brought down only to cost and the exclusion of whether we are doing the right thing by administering vaccines unnecessarily, is there really any benefit to vaccinating for CC (which would involve a Vet consult fee and out-of-pockets for the vaccine) for the sake of maintaining insurance cover?

Plus Kennel Cough vaccine doesn't cover all strains (not even a third of strains, from memory), so they can still get it. If they aren't of an age or type of breed when KC is likely to cause massive issues or be fatal, it's pretty pointless.

[Erny]

I assume if immunity is lower than it should be?

I could only assume the same. Which means these Vets retain the concept of "more immunity or less immunity", which is a concept I don't believe. For me, one is immune or not immune, nothing in between.

[Steph M]

I would have thought that was the case too but hey!

[DeltaCharlie]

Even with the dogs that are covered by petplan, I am not going to vaccinate them. The whole point of titre testing is to give you the confidence that your dog has immunity and will not contract the disease even if it came in contact with it. Given that, why would I vaccinate to ensure they are insured for a disease I am confident they should have immunity for anyway? Does that make sense?

Perfect sense, DC. In fact, given that we are weakening immune systems by an overload of vaccine, the Insurance Companies should be embracing the idea of and accepting titres with open arms.

KC is a different story, even though I see it as unnecessary I am considering getting Whip re-vaccinated for it as that way if he happens to contract it and requires veterinary attention I can claim the expenses. Delta and Charlie are not insured so I won't give it to them. Shock is still covered by her puppy vaccs at this point in time.

What would be the likely expense of treatment for CC though?

What I mean by the above is that there is no treatment for CC itself. That's a matter of letting it run its course. But if it was to develop to secondary infection, I could imagine the cost of a vet visit and antibiotic.

Under my insurance plan, I have to pay for the first $100 anyway. So, if it is brought down only to cost and the exclusion of whether we are doing the right thing by administering vaccines unnecessarily, is there really any benefit to vaccinating for CC (which would involve a Vet consult fee and out-of-pockets for the vaccine) for the sake of maintaining insurance cover?

Plus Kennel Cough vaccine doesn't cover all strains (not even a third of strains, from memory), so they can still get it. If they aren't of an age or type of breed when KC is likely to cause massive issues or be fatal, it's pretty pointless.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly :) I don't agree with the KC vaccine, and see it as rather pointless as it doesn't cover much and the disease itself in an otherwise healthy dog won't make them any more than a little bit sick. Which is why I haven't actually gone ahead with it yet, as it goes against what I believe in. Our dogs don't come in close contact with other dogs at a trial, don't share water bowls or drink from communal bowls, and rarely have play dates with other dogs. So I consider their chance of contracting any form of KC to be quite minimal.

However, my mind was partially changed after a conversation with FHRP a while back. A healthy dog she knew had contracted it (surprise, surprise given how many strands are not vaccinate-able) and the vet costs in the end came to a quite a few hundred dollars (not sure of the treatment required). As the dog was covered with Petplan, the fees were reimbursed minus the excess of course. She said it had actually worked out much cheaper financially for the owner to have the dog vaccinated and subsequently insured. I don't know the finer details of it though.

[kayla1]

I paid $54 recently for the parvo titre test. My dog was getting a blood profile done so the blood for the titre test was taken at the same time.

Can't remember how much I paid last time my dogs had it done, I'd have to go back and check - it was more than $54 but not overly expensive.

[FHRP]

However, my mind was partially changed after a conversation with FHRP a while back. A healthy dog she knew had contracted it (surprise, surprise given how many strands are not vaccinate-able) and the vet costs in the end came to a quite a few hundred dollars (not sure of the treatment required). As the dog was covered with Petplan, the fees were reimbursed minus the excess of course. She said it had actually worked out much cheaper financially for the owner to have the dog vaccinated and subsequently insured. I don't know the finer details of it though.

That was probably my own girl who got KC last year, and yes she was young, healthy and vaccinated. The KC was never life threatening or even terribly extreme but she had lots of congestion and was very uncomfortable for quite a while. She had several vet visits, anti inflamitories and antibiotics (plus 'non claimable' cough syrup, manuka honey, a vaporiser etc.). My vets aren't cheap so the pet insurance well and truly kicked in!

However, I'm also rethinking future vaccination for kennel cough :D

[CrazyCresties]

Lots of useful information in here, thanks everyone :)

I just signed Louis up for some training, but they requested vaccination cards. Louis was last vaccinated 4 years ago and due to his recent IMHA can never be vaccinated again. It sounds like the training club will accept a titre test though, and having rung my lovely vet, they are happy to do titre testing and the result will be back within a day :)

[OSoSwift]

Lots of useful information in here, thanks everyone :)

I just signed Louis up for some training, but they requested vaccination cards. Louis was last vaccinated 4 years ago and due to his recent IMHA can never be vaccinated again. It sounds like the training club will accept a titre test though, and having rung my lovely vet, they are happy to do titre testing and the result will be back within a day :)

I would imagine under those circumstances with a letter from a vet they should be happy with that. Alsthough these days getting a titre is quite easy.

[CrazyCresties]

Bugger, my vet just called and Louis's titre test apparently showed he has no immunity

Brief history - He was last vaccinated 4yrs ago in the UK just before moving them over here with us. He went down with IMHA last May and was recently weaned off all medication related to this, but was on high doses of immune-suppressants (pred and Atoptica) for months.

Obviously his immune system has taken a real battering since last May, but would that have affected his levels of antibodies? Is that a really dumb question?

He can't be vaccinated again due to the IMHA, so am I now putting him at risk by taking him out for training (which was due to start on Sunday) or for walks

I don't know the exact numbers from the test - I will be picking them up on the way home tonight.

Edited March 5, 2014 by CrazyCresties

[cavNrott]

Bugger, my vet just called and Louis's titre test apparently showed he has no immunity

Brief history - He was last vaccinated 4yrs ago in the UK just before moving them over here with us. He went down with IMHA last May and was recently weaned off all medication related to this, but was on high doses of immune-suppressants (pred and Atoptica) for months.

Obviously his immune system has taken a real battering since last May, but would that have affected his levels of antibodies? Is that a really dumb question?

He can't be vaccinated again due to the IMHA, so am I now putting him at risk by taking him out for training (which was due to start on Sunday) or for walks

I don't know the exact numbers from the test - I will be picking them up on the way home tonight.

Contact Erny. Maybe PM her though I do hope she'll chime in here so we can all learn from her. She knows about vaccinations, antibodies and immunity. For sure she knows more about the subject than my vet and probably more than most vets do.

edited because I don't seem able to type a sentence without E or O

Edited March 5, 2014 by cavNrott

[CrazyCresties]

Thanks cavNrott :)

Paging Erny, paging Erny........ :D

[Erny]

Contact Erny. Maybe PM her though I do hope she'll chime in here so we can all learn from her. She knows about vaccinations, antibodies and immunity. For sure she knows more about the subject than my vet and probably more than most vets do.

edited because I don't seem able to type a sentence without E or O

I love you all for the vote of confidence, but I have to tell you that my knowledge is limited to what I've read, felt comfortable with.

CC - If I were you, I would contact Dr Jean Dodds (USA). Google her and you'll catch her website (Hemopet). To me, Jean is the guru in regards to vaccination regime and suggestions and is the one I have the ultimate confidence in. If she advised "re-vaccinate" I'd have confidence that she wouldn't just be saying it for saying it sake. Dr Jean is one of the leading Vets who have argued against over-vaccinating for a long time.

Having said that, I'm initially inclined to say "no", don't re-vaccinate. Sure, IF there is no immunity there is a risk (what that risk is depends on your environment) but what damage could occur to your dog's already obviously compromised immune system if the vaccine booster was again given? I'd imagine that's the question you've already asked yourself.

What I am wondering is if you've already PREVIOUSLY conducted a titre test and whether that showed up an antibody count. If it did, it means your dog does have sero-conversion and therefore there is the chance and likelihood that the immunity is at cell memory status.

What I'm not certain of is whether the affects of IMHA along with the treatments for it could possibly have counter-acted immunity (really have no idea on possibility of this).

These are the questions floating around in my mind and ones you could perhaps speak with Dr Jean about. She is one heck of a brilliant lady.

[Erny]

Thanks cavNrott :)

Paging Erny, paging Erny........ :D

:laugh:

[teekay]

Just wanted to add to this thread. I emailed PetPlan about whether titres would affect cover if my dogs contracted any of the diseases normally covered by vaccination. I got a reply saying "if the vat says my dogs don't need the vaccination then cover would be fine" Although TBH if their titres are good they shouldn't get the disease anyway I suppose. :)

I have saved that email just in case :D

[CrazyCresties]

Thanks Erny :) The paperwork says Parvo and Distemper IFA serology titre both < 1:5 which equates to 'suboptimal protection'. Also "A titre of 1:5 is considered the lowest detectable antibody level. Note that it is possible that lower titres are still protective and the influence of cell mediated response cannot be reliably assessed in this manner"

He hasn't had a titre test before, so no comparison unfortunately. I wouldn't be willing to risk revaccination as all I have read says it is an absolute 'no no' for IMHA dogs.

I think you're right, time to contact Dr Jean Dodds. She is also an IMHA expert so should certainly be able to offer some expert and experienced advice.

So bloody typical, he is so well in himself now and I have just started taking him out on early morning walks and was due to start a short training course on Sunday. I really don't know if I can risk taking him out of the house now

eta - Did you contact Dr Dodds yourself, or did your vet liaise with her?

Edited March 5, 2014 by CrazyCresties

[OSoSwift]

YOu can contact them I am quite sure. Personally I would delay the training to be on the safe side until you get some more answers. If he has no antibodies to a vaccine the chances of him being able to fight off a major threat to his immune system I imagine would be low as well.

[CrazyCresties]

Thanks OSo. Yup decided he is back to being house bound for now, luckily he copes really well with not going out.

The first time I booked to do some agility with these trainers he went down with the IMHA the next day. About a month ago I got back in touch with them to enquire about a back to basics course for him - he had his first pancreatic attack that very day. Now he was due to start Sunday and this has happened! I think the world is trying to tell me something

[Erny]

Contact can be made direct. Dr Jean is such a lovely person - I don't like to exploit the generosity of her time that she does tend to willingly give, but I'd suggest this is a very important question and one that she would most likely be pleased to be able to assist in giving her opinion/advice on.

Edited to add …. I'd also love to know what her thoughts are as well, if you don't mind sharing and if Dr Jean doesn't mind you putting it up here.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Erny

[CrazyCresties]

Thanks Erny, I've found the hemopet site so will shoot an email off to them this evening.

eta - Of course I will share any info :) I'm also more than happy to pay her a consultation fee, so will mention that when I contact them. I'm already down 20k on Louis since May, what's a bit more! :laugh:

Edited March 5, 2014 by CrazyCresties