Titre Testing

[BlackJaq]

Wow, I got ripped off big time, I paid $240 for our pups recent Titre test the had to chase the results myself. I still don't have the complete results though but she said she would ring so I guess there won't be a consult fee to get his results when they are back.

And to answer the original question, they did the test but would have preferred to just vaccinate him....I think they thought I was a little nutty :D

That is about what I paid as well.......

I never vaccinate for KC and ours only had it once so far, several years ago. If I had to board them I would get it done but only as it is a requirement.

Anyway, I have now received a call from the vet who took the blood and she told me the numbers on the phone but I forget exactly what they were.. She was covered for both parvo (with high levels) and distemper (a lot lower levels but still covered).

Hopefully I will get the written copy shortly so I can post actual numbers.

As it stands atm I will not be re-vaccinating next year, only titre, unless levels are too low for some reason.

My vet seemed a little concerned at the much lower distemper levels but when I said that it seems to be common as exposure is less she agreed and it seemed to kind of flick on the light switch :p

Overall this experience has really shaken my confidence in this clinic and I will not be discussing vaccination with them any more. I will look into going to Canberra for Titres next year and I will ask them to stop sending me vaccination reminders as well....

I'm a bit sorry I chose to vaccinate anyway now but I guess I am lucky not to have a dog with vaccination reactions and what's done is done, so....

Edited February 4, 2014 by BlackJaq

[Canine Coach]

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

[minimax]

All Natural Vet Care, Russell Lea (Sydney, NSW) http://naturalvet.com.au/

Def no resistance there, it's their preferred method (but they don't push it, however they do assume people going there have some desire for the more natural things ;)

[trinabean]

Anyway, I have now received a call from the vet who took the blood and she told me the numbers on the phone but I forget exactly what they were.. She was covered for both parvo (with high levels) and distemper (a lot lower levels but still covered).

Hopefully I will get the written copy shortly so I can post actual numbers.

As it stands atm I will not be re-vaccinating next year, only titre, unless levels are too low for some reason.

My vet seemed a little concerned at the much lower distemper levels but when I said that it seems to be common as exposure is less she agreed and it seemed to kind of flick on the light switch :p

Blackjaq hopefully they will send you a written copy of the titre test. Bruno's titre levels were high for Parvo (1:80), but much lower for distemper too ( 1:5). My vet explained it just as you did. :)

Distemper is not as prevalent in most areas as Parvo is, therefore their immune 'memory' for Parvo is often stronger. The pathology report I received noted that although the Distemper levels were low, they still indicated some immunity. Or words to that effect.

My vet was lamenting that Distemper and Parvo vaccinations are combined, and Distemper is not available separately, as that was all Bruno needed. I went ahead with a C3 and hope that will last us about 3 years. I was happy that he still had decent titre levels at 3 years old, considering his last C3 was when he was 12 weeks old.

[trinabean]

I would appreciate assistance in putting together a list of VETS with contact details, (all states/cities) personally recommended by people on this forum

Please feel free to E Mail me privately, or if allowed on this forum, to list here, VETS in all states that are open to more modern methods/protocols.

My puppy buyers are encountering enormous resistance to titre testing from the various Vets they go to.

In fact 1 particular QLD. Vet argued strongly to one of my puppy buyers that they MUST protect their dog by having a yearly C#7 PLUS a yearly heartworm injection PLUS monthly worming. (Sarcastically speaking, I wondered if he also asked; "Would you like immune mediated diseases with that"?)

Recently, I rang a Vet I have used in the past, to see if he would do a titre on my dogs & on future puppy buyers dogs, after they complete their 14 month old C #3. He said he "had only ever reluctantly done 1 titre test on a very elderly dog that had a strong adverse reaction from it's yearly vaccination". He said that "the OWNER insisted on the titre even though that it cost $300 from ASAP in Melbourne" . He said although his own young dog "has severe immune related skin allergies, & is on cortisone for life, that his dog HAS to get yearly C 5 because it comes to work with him & may be exposed to diseases from patients dogs"

I told him about VETPATH in W.A. & he was temporarily speechless.

Resistance by Vets seems to be a very common reaction.

I recommend Applecross Vet Hospital here in Perth. Steve Metcalfe is an excellent vet.

I'll link to their website, although it is under construction and some links are not currently displaying: Applecross Vet Hospital

[Erny]

Anyway, I have now received a call from the vet who took the blood and she told me the numbers on the phone but I forget exactly what they were.. She was covered for both parvo (with high levels) and distemper (a lot lower levels but still covered).

Hopefully I will get the written copy shortly so I can post actual numbers.

As it stands atm I will not be re-vaccinating next year, only titre, unless levels are too low for some reason.

My vet seemed a little concerned at the much lower distemper levels but when I said that it seems to be common as exposure is less she agreed and it seemed to kind of flick on the light switch :p

Blackjaq hopefully they will send you a written copy of the titre test. Bruno's titre levels were high for Parvo (1:80), but much lower for distemper too ( 1:5). My vet explained it just as you did. :)

Distemper is not as prevalent in most areas as Parvo is, therefore their immune 'memory' for Parvo is often stronger. The pathology report I received noted that although the Distemper levels were low, they still indicated some immunity. Or words to that effect.

My vet was lamenting that Distemper and Parvo vaccinations are combined, and Distemper is not available separately, as that was all Bruno needed. I went ahead with a C3 and hope that will last us about 3 years. I was happy that he still had decent titre levels at 3 years old, considering his last C3 was when he was 12 weeks old.

Even with a low antibody count for Distemper - immunity is still indicated. The numbers don't really mean diddly squat (other than they are an interesting indicator of recent exposure or not). Immunity is immunity. You either are, or you are not. So even if there had been a separate vaccine for Distemper, Bruno still wouldn't have needed it as immunity was still proven.

Beyond that I'll add that I do believe in cell memory and if I got a titre that indicated no antibodies (after previous titres had shown sero-conversion had occurred), it really only indicates that the anti-bodies, realising they didn't need to be on active duty in the blood stream, had gone on leave for a rest and I wouldn't necessarily re-vaccinate. It doesn't mean the body has no defence anymore - Cell Memory would recall and activate those antibodies which would return to active duty again, on exposure to the relevant disease. I must admit I do like it, though, when the titre shows anti-body count, as it provides visual re-assurance. Because I suspect that due to my boy's sensitivities his puppy vaccine regime may well have contributed to his slightly later checkered health history, I will be interested to see whether there is a correlation to a "zero antibody count in a titre" and "resumption to best of health". I doubt that will ever occur, somehow, mainly because of ever present exposure of some sort. Don't mind me …. just musing on this last bit.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Erny

[alpha bet]

The truth about Kennel Cough - I run a boarding kennel, so always checking and reading new reports and searching information for new recommendations. We all know that Dr Jean Dodds is the guru on this subject and yet many vets seem oblivious to this.... really it would seem to be such basic information that every vet students should know.

There are about 8 strains of kennel cough of which there is only a vaccination that covers for two of these.... hence many dogs who are vaccinated can still contract KC

Also note that the vaccination for KC is only recommended as a 6 month cover.... but I have NEVER had a vet ever mentioned this - I assume they do not know!!!!!...... hence why many dogs can have their annual vaccination but still contract KC

Vets must be starting to hate the information that clients are able to source online.... we now learn to question their advice....

p.s. I accept C3 vaccinations as per the AVA recommendations, also will accept the titre test.... just wish there was one local vet who knew how to do this without wanting to charge $250 per dog!

Whoever made the suggestion that we compile a list of Vets who use the AVA recommendation and titre test - Great Idea.

[Erny]

p.s. I accept C3 vaccinations as per the AVA recommendations, also will accept the titre test....

[OSoSwift]

p.p.s - me too :)

Edited February 6, 2014 by OSoSwift

[stormie]

I don't understand why so many vets go blank at the suggestion of titre testing. All the regular pathology labs we have ever used offer it and there are a couple of very well known vaccine companies who also now have in house titre testing which they regularly come to talk to us about.

We have stuck with VetPath in WA to keep costs down and when we just do the two tests, Parvo and Dist, results are generally back within a couple of days. The reports I have seen all look pretty self explanatory so I'm not sure how the results could ever be difficult to read.

I also don't understand the boarding issue. The Vet clinic up the road from us refuses to board dogs who have had a 3 yearly C3, despite it being the registered vaccine. Thankfully we haven't had too many issues with kennels only taking intranasals.

We follow the WSAVA guidelines for vaccines for both dogs and cats. We have the information from the Vaccine Guidlines Group readily available for people who want more information. But basically we do 3 puppy shots, then another one a year after. Then it's 3 yearly after that or titre testing. Kennel Cough for those who regularly go boarding.

Cats are the same. People are often surprised we do 3 yearly vaccines for cats despite not having a registered triennial vaccine but the evidence is documented that annual vacc's just aren't necessary so why do it? Clients seem happy though and most still return for regular check-ups - probably because they believe we're actually just wanting to do what's best rather than keep our pockets lined.

[Canine Coach]

Personally, I occasionally buy online, a one dose parvo shot and do my dogs myself.

Rebanne where do you buy your parvo shot from? I'm quite comfortable giving injections and this is the only one I really would like to do a bit more often as we don't put dogs in kennels, etc

In the U.S.A, almost all the breeders I knew did their own C#3 puppy shots at 7 weeks of age, They & I ordered their vaccine to be sent on ice from DRS. Foster & Smith, an online vet supply company. The average cost of a Protek brand C#3. At that time, (about 10 years ago, with postage the cost was about $1.50 each when one ordered 6 or more). Rabies (unlike Australia) is an issue in USA must be done by a VET as it is a legally required vaccine & one needs Vet certified paperwork proving one's dog has had a 1st Rabies shot at 6 months of age.

[Canine Coach]

All Natural Vet Care, Russell Lea (Sydney, NSW) http://naturalvet.com.au/

Def no resistance there, it's their preferred method (but they don't push it, however they do assume people going there have some desire for the more natural things ;)

Thanks!!!! Please everyone, send in a list of Holistic or happy to titre to check immunity levels, in lieu of routine vaccinations, Vets in your state/cities

[alpha bet]

Canine Coach - Another one for the list - Dr Bruce Syme in Castlemaine Vic does the titre testing.... send me the list when you get it together and I will place in my puppy pack along with all the updated information on vaccine schedules. Love to give my puppy buyers as much info as possible so they don't get bamboozled by the vet into spending excess cash.

Where do you buy/source vaccinations - I would love to buy my own and inject my own pups.... but didn't know you could buy vaccines....

Edited February 7, 2014 by alpha bet

[Erny]

I second Alpha Bet's recommendation (along side my recommendation for Dr Bob Cavey which I think I inadvertently put in the other thread in "General"). Dr Bruce Syme is all for not over-loading the dog's system with chemicals and he's a lovely Vet to boot. He is one I drove to (3 hours each way) because in the advent of my boy's health issues becoming apparent, the only Vets over my way back then, all wanted to administer antibiotics and cortisone, even in the absence of diagnoses. I have much respect and appreciation for Dr Bruce Syme.

[DeltaCharlie]

Kate Millhouse at Holistic Paws in Kambah, ACT

Holistic Paws website

Costs us $60 per dog for parvo/distemper. Sent to vetpath in WA and results are back a few days later. Kate always requests the actual numbers rather than just positive/negative and keeps a database on all dogs to see how their levels are fluctuating over time. I would definitely recommend her to anyone looking for titre testing in the Canberra region.

[trinabean]

Anyway, I have now received a call from the vet who took the blood and she told me the numbers on the phone but I forget exactly what they were.. She was covered for both parvo (with high levels) and distemper (a lot lower levels but still covered).

Hopefully I will get the written copy shortly so I can post actual numbers.

As it stands atm I will not be re-vaccinating next year, only titre, unless levels are too low for some reason.

My vet seemed a little concerned at the much lower distemper levels but when I said that it seems to be common as exposure is less she agreed and it seemed to kind of flick on the light switch :p

Blackjaq hopefully they will send you a written copy of the titre test. Bruno's titre levels were high for Parvo (1:80), but much lower for distemper too ( 1:5). My vet explained it just as you did. :)

Distemper is not as prevalent in most areas as Parvo is, therefore their immune 'memory' for Parvo is often stronger. The pathology report I received noted that although the Distemper levels were low, they still indicated some immunity. Or words to that effect.

My vet was lamenting that Distemper and Parvo vaccinations are combined, and Distemper is not available separately, as that was all Bruno needed. I went ahead with a C3 and hope that will last us about 3 years. I was happy that he still had decent titre levels at 3 years old, considering his last C3 was when he was 12 weeks old.

Even with a low antibody count for Distemper - immunity is still indicated. The numbers don't really mean diddly squat (other than they are an interesting indicator of recent exposure or not). Immunity is immunity. You either are, or you are not. So even if there had been a separate vaccine for Distemper, Bruno still wouldn't have needed it as immunity was still proven.

Beyond that I'll add that I do believe in cell memory and if I got a titre that indicated no antibodies (after previous titres had shown sero-conversion had occurred), it really only indicates that the anti-bodies, realising they didn't need to be on active duty in the blood stream, had gone on leave for a rest and I wouldn't necessarily re-vaccinate. It doesn't mean the body has no defence anymore - Cell Memory would recall and activate those antibodies which would return to active duty again, on exposure to the relevant disease. I must admit I do like it, though, when the titre shows anti-body count, as it provides visual re-assurance. Because I suspect that due to my boy's sensitivities his puppy vaccine regime may well have contributed to his slightly later checkered health history, I will be interested to see whether there is a correlation to a "zero antibody count in a titre" and "resumption to best of health". I doubt that will ever occur, somehow, mainly because of ever present exposure of some sort. Don't mind me …. just musing on this last bit.

Interesting musings Erny. And yes, I agree that Bruno still had immunity to Distemper. It was a tough decision really, at the time I hadn't found kennels that would accept a titre (let alone one that disregarded the noted low titres for Distemper). We had a holiday and a kennel booked over Christmas, it would have been impossible to find other arrangements at that busy time, so I gave in and got the C3 and nasal KC done. Since that holiday, I've found both a kennel that will accept titres, and a possible dog-sitter for next time we go away. :)

[trinabean]

Canine Coach my earlier post may have been ambiguous, but my vet does titre tests. It's about $60 for a Parvo/Distemper test.

Applecross Vet Hospital here in Perth, WA. Steve Metcalfe is an excellent vet.

I'll link to their website, although it is under construction and some links are not currently displaying: Applecross Vet Hospital

[BlackJaq]

Hi guys, I have received the fax a couple of days ago but have been a bit busy with work.

So the result sheet is VERY self explanatory, listing exactly what each number means.... Not sure if the vet nurse just didn't read it all or what...

The test was sent to Idexx Laboratories but performed by Colorado State University in the USA.....

Distemper levels are 1:128. It says "Titres of 1:32 and higher indicate probable protective immunity; higher levels indicate better protection" so she is plenty covered for distemper.

Parvo levels are 1:4096. It says "Titres of 1:64 and higher indicate probable protective immunity; higher levels indicate better protection" so parvo is plenty covered as well.

Not sure how you get "not covered at all" from that................ I will certainly not be re-vaccinating next year. The other dogs just got their shots this time because I couldn't afford to shell out $250 for each of them but if I can get them done for $60 a piece then obviously I will. My only concern is for Bear because we only got him at 12 months and this is when he had his first ever vaccination. I would definitely like to get him tested next year to make sure he is covered as he had no puppy shots at all with previous owner...

[cavNrott]

Even with a low antibody count for Distemper - immunity is still indicated. The numbers don't really mean diddly squat (other than they are an interesting indicator of recent exposure or not). Immunity is immunity. You either are, or you are not. So even if there had been a separate vaccine for Distemper, Bruno still wouldn't have needed it as immunity was still proven.

Beyond that I'll add that I do believe in cell memory and if I got a titre that indicated no antibodies (after previous titres had shown sero-conversion had occurred), it really only indicates that the anti-bodies, realising they didn't need to be on active duty in the blood stream, had gone on leave for a rest and I wouldn't necessarily re-vaccinate. It doesn't mean the body has no defence anymore - Cell Memory would recall and activate those antibodies which would return to active duty again, on exposure to the relevant disease. I must admit I do like it, though, when the titre shows anti-body count, as it provides visual re-assurance. Because I suspect that due to my boy's sensitivities his puppy vaccine regime may well have contributed to his slightly later checkered health history, I will be interested to see whether there is a correlation to a "zero antibody count in a titre" and "resumption to best of health". I doubt that will ever occur, somehow, mainly because of ever present exposure of some sort. Don't mind me …. just musing on this last bit.

This makes perfect sense to me. I've been researching this subject all day and have reached this same conclusion. I'm therefore not sure titre testing is necessary in dogs who have immunity as a result of previous vaccinations.

My dogs are now almost 10yo and 8 1/2yo respectively. They've had no vaccinations since their puppy shots and a booster at 16 months of age, despite the vet insisting they need to be vaccinated because they have no protection from Parvo or distemper.

He said if everyone took my stance, parvo and distemper would be endemic and intimated that people with my attitude are basically riding on the backs of the responsible people who vaccinate annually.

I now see another vet in that practice who's thiinking is more enlightened.

[Sayreovi]

He said if everyone took my stance, parvo and distemper would be endemic and intimated that people with my attitude are basically riding on the backs of the responsible people who vaccinate annually.

I get this sort of attitude as well, along with my dogs "shedding" more of a virus then a yearly vaccinated dog and responsible for every dog that contracts KC at a trial :)

They didn't have an answer for me when I asked who was responsible when my at the time fully vaccinated (had her yearly booster a few months before) dog contracted KC while attending a trial? Funny that :)

I've also been told that there is no such thing as a titre for Parvo or distemper.....said by a person in a "power position". Quite scary.

I used Dr Pearson at Paws to Heal http://pawstoheal.com.au/holistic-vet-clinic-for-geelong/ for my titres. Less then $100 per dog (I think it was $60 or $80) and results back within a few days. Worth the travel with 3 dogs when I was charged less going to Geelong then taking one dog to a local vet.