Zig Is Having Some Sort Of Seizures

[Staffyluv]

It started a while back and now he has had 4 'episodes' in 7 months..

Last nights 'episode' (I don't know what else to call them but they aren't like having a fit, where he shakes etc) lasted from around 10pm and it was 4am before he finally settled enough to go to sleep.

We went off to the vet and looking up his history, they now want to put him on phenobarbital (sp?)..

I have seen people on this drug and I wanted to check it out myself before just giving it to him (they have prepared it for me, to go and collect when I am ready)..

Does anyone have any experience with this drug and how it affects the dogs?

My poor rescue mutt, diagnosed with hip dysplasia a couple of months ago and now this (although he had a couple of episodes before the HD diagnosis - it isn't really something that I ever thought would amount to anything)..

Thanks in advance

[~Anne~]

I have oodles of experience with phenobarbital (Pb) and a couple of other anti epileptic meds.

Depending on the dose age, you may see anything increased restlessness and weakness of the hind area to nothing at all. Usually light symptoms will disspear as his body gets used to the drug. Other symptoms are increased thirst and urination. Long term use can destroy the liver.

The level of Pb drops very quickly in the dogs system after 12 hours and so timing is everything with ensuring optimal control of seizures.

The dose will need to be adjusted to get it to optimal levels. He should be on it for at least 3 months and then a blood test should be done at trough levels (immediately prior to his next dose) to check the serum level.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ~Anne~

[Staffyluv]

Thanks Anne, I thought there was something about the liver and this vet today said it never happens.. When I asked if it never happens, why is it mentioned he just fobbed me off..

Weakness in the hind quarters is an issue as well because I am trying to build muscle and tone his hind quarters to help with the HD..

The vet also said that they don't need to check as often and would only check his bloods after 6 months - I would prefer a 3 month check, considering there 'could' be an issue with the liver..

Poor lad, hasn't eaten all day today - he is happy enough but really quite flat today.

[tdierikx]

Sounds like a new vet is in order Staffyluv...

I'd be going for full bloods at a bare minimum before prescribing heavy duty drugs and fobbing you off about their possible effects long term.

T.

[~Anne~]

Liver damage only occurs in dogs on high long term doses normally, Staffyluv.

Monte, who was on high doses for more than 9 years was lucky. He had 12 monthly blood tests checking for serum levels and his liver. Never had a problem.

Many dogs show no real side effects when on Pb. It depends on the dose and the dog. Monte's tail never curled well and he wasn't able to jump up much due to the ataxia. He was also restless. He drank a lot of water and he urinated a lot. Monte was also on bromide and this may also have amplified some of the side effects as both drugs had side effects.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ~Anne~

[Staffyluv]

T this vet is pretty good, he has loads of clients that adore him - I just prefer the vet we use all the time..

Bloods were done a few months ago at the last episode that he had. They pointed to epilepsy back then but they usually wait until they have had x amount of seizures in a certain time frame before continuing onto drug treatment apparently..

This is Zig's 4th episode in 7 months, which is beyond what they would normally wait to medicate, apparently..

Thanks Anne, that makes me feel a bit better. Yeah he mentioned Bromide today and said that is much stronger than phenobarbital.. He also said Zig would be on a low dose (based on the last bloods a few months ago)..

I was really hoping there was a diet solution :) Like change his kibble or give more of this or that...

[westiemum]

Staffyluv, my Westie Andy has occasional focal epilepsy and is not medicated - so I can't help you there. (Andy doesn't lose consciousness or become incontinent - he simply head shakes side to side uncontrollably for 3-6 minutes).

But I do find he's more susceptible in hot weather roughly between November and March. It's rare he has a seizure in winter. It will probably help you a lot if you keep a diary - I bought a cheap one especially for the purpose. Record time,date, duration, temperature and description - and if you know what he was doing before the seizure that might help too. It's useful to see if there's a pattern - it's how I realised Andy is more susceptible in summer and make sure he stays as cool as possible. Hope that helps and good luck.

[Kajtek]

I assume that your vet has eliminated heart arrhythmia.

Is it possible that external stimuli causes this reaction (stress, fear, excitement, etc)?

Edit:

My sister's dog had similar symptoms. We did lots of tests. Eventually, one of the specialists suggested stress reaction to something. She hasn't had an episode for a long time now.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Kajtek

[YvonneM]

My maltese x boy used to have what I called episodes too - he had an isolated episode and then about 6-9 months later had a couple in quick succession - as in about 4 in 2-3 days. My vet was fabulous and opened his clinic in the middle of the night for me to bring him in and check him out. Vet suspected epilepsy and he was thereafter medicated on Phenobarbitone half tablet twice daily for the rest of his years - I don't remember the details now but he was probably taking it for about 5 years or so. Never had another episode again once medicated and no other side effects or problems.

[Staffyluv]

Staffyluv, my Westie Andy has occasional focal epilepsy and is not medicated - so I can't help you there. (Andy doesn't lose consciousness or become incontinent - he simply head shakes side to side uncontrollably for 3-6 minutes).

But I do find he's more susceptible in hot weather roughly between November and March. It's rare he has a seizure in winter. It will probably help you a lot if you keep a diary - I bought a cheap one especially for the purpose. Record time,date, duration, temperature and description - and if you know what he was doing before the seizure that might help too. It's useful to see if there's a pattern - it's how I realised Andy is more susceptible in summer and make sure he stays as cool as possible. Hope that helps and good luck.

He had his first episode in winter, so probably not heat related.. Zigs episode last night went on and off for about 6 hours. He sits bolt upright (he is always sleeping when it starts) and starts off by sucking air in, then licking the air with his head thrown right back. Then he runs outside and starts eating grass, like there is no tomorrow. I know all dogs eat some grass but he pulls up whatever he can and will even eat the roots and dirt.

This lasts for maybe a few minutes, then he settles and a short while later it happens again and again. Last night I think I went out with him 7 times in the 6 hours it was going on. In between he is restless, he tosses and moves position. At around 4 this morning he just slipped into a really deep sleep, he must have been exhausted, I know I was..

The only pattern I can see is that he is always asleep. There isn't a food that I can relate to it, he doesn't drink or pee more, he isn't frightened or stressed..

It is very frustrating not knowing how to help him.

I assume that your vet has eliminated heart arrhythmia.

Is it possible that external stimuli causes this reaction (stress, fear, excitement, etc)?

Edit:

My sister's dog had similar symptoms. We did lots of tests. Eventually, one of the specialists suggested stress reaction to something. She hasn't had an episode for a long time now.

Yep, heart and lungs all clear, liver function was fine, there was something in the blood work that suggested low or high heamoglobin (sp?) or something and whatever it was is some indication of epilepsy..

My maltese x boy used to have what I called episodes too - he had an isolated episode and then about 6-9 months later had a couple in quick succession - as in about 4 in 2-3 days. My vet was fabulous and opened his clinic in the middle of the night for me to bring him in and check him out. Vet suspected epilepsy and he was thereafter medicated on Phenobarbitone half tablet twice daily for the rest of his years - I don't remember the details now but he was probably taking it for about 5 years or so. Never had another episode again once medicated and no other side effects or problems.

Thanks, I'm not as worried about the drug as I was. I've been reading heaps about it tonight..

I have my vets mobile and he has said numerous times to call but I'm calling him in the middle of the night, when our emergency vet (as overpriced as they are), is just down the road..

[ari.g]

Weakness in the hind quarters is an issue as well because I am trying to build muscle and tone his hind quarters to help with the HD..

Sorry, I can't help at all with the seizures

So it doesn't go OT and if you have time, could you please PM me what you are doing to try and build muscle and tone in the hind quarters? I do walking up hills but Nelsson just seems to use his front legs more

[CavsRcute]

Random thought....could it be something like reflux???

My girl used to always get it when she was asleep and would then rush out and gobble a whole heap of grass.

[Little Gifts]

I had a staffy boy on phenobarb from about 6 months of age till he was about 4. He was on the maximum dose possible and was still fitting at least once a week, sometimes more. He walked around in a drug like haze most of the time and had difficulty with appetite and weight and his depth perception was not great. He was never left alone and could escape the most secure enclosure if you tried to do so. My vet is a holistic one and we ran out of treatment options when he was about a year old and on the verge of pts so she worked with a local naturopath and he was on a concoction of drops and the seizures reduced, his phenobarb dose reduced and after about 3 years he was seizure and medication free. It was a lot of experimentation and finger crossing over a long period of time only because we had run out of options because the phenobarb was not controlling his situation and his quality of life was deteriorating. He lived till he was almost 13 but had lots of fear triggers - storms, the garbage truck, rustling plastic bags, etc. It was like he'd come out of a fog and noise was a little too much for him at times. He would not have made it that far though without the commitment of my vet. He didn't have any liver or other health problems linked to the fits or medication.

A vet you trust is very important as this could be a health problem with no quick fix and no clean diagnosis. Sometimes you will never know why the seizures started and I could never find any triggers for our boy. Hopefully it is manageable for the lovely Ziggy and not too stressful for you. His behaviours sound really strange but certainly they aren't normal and there seems to be a compulsive behaviours pattern to them. My experiences were with the full blown body jerks and litres of slimy frothing. It used to take a lot of energy out of our boy too and he would fall into a very deep sleep afterwards. Does it seem to take a while for Ziggy to recognise you and his environment after he is coming out of these events? Do his other senses seem to be in sync or working properly? Our boy would be very out of it after a fit and he didn't seem to be getting any visual or aural (oral?) messages for maybe half an hour afterwards. We would just keep him safe and clean him up until he was back to his version of normal. One thing I always found incredibly strange was that our boy never fitted by himself - we never discovered him covered in drool or found drool piles anywhere random. We also worked and yet he never had a fit while being baby sat by my parents or the neighbours during the day. They mainly happened at night and always in our presence. Anne and I have disagreed with this in the past but I am sure our boy knew he was going to have a fit because if he was asleep on the lounge he would get down and lie in the centre of the floor before it started. But like this happening to Ziggy only when he is asleep - what can you even do with that kind of information except be thankful you are there for him?

I hope the phenobarb works for Zig.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Little Gifts

[Staffyluv]

Random thought....could it be something like reflux???

My girl used to always get it when she was asleep and would then rush out and gobble a whole heap of grass.

He has been checked and there isn't any sign of reflux.

That is what I thought it was.

The actions he displays can be part of a seizure. There are 3 parts, from memory ( I had so much info given today, I may balls this up).

Each part can have different levels of severity. Zigs seem to be mostly in the first part, petty something or other and not actually followed by a notable seizure (what we typically see as a seizure) and then there is the after effects, often exhaustion.

Ari.g, we are using physio, swimming and I hopefully will have a fit disc fro K9 Pro in the next week or two. Our vet gave us the details of a physio here so we can learn to help build up his core strength and balance.

He is also running but it is controlled, not allowing him to do they typical turn on the spot at full speed..

The fit disc is what will make the most difference and swimming.

Keeping him lean has made a difference as well. He was just over 27kg and now he is 26.2kg. So about a kilo lighter.

[Little Gifts]

Petit-mal (French for little illness) is an absence seizure like a brief brain disturbance. Grand-mal (French for big illnesses) is the old term for seizures at the other end of the spectrum. I think that is where the 'petty' comes in.

[sandgrubber]

Thanks Anne, I thought there was something about the liver and this vet today said it never happens.. When I asked if it never happens, why is it mentioned he just fobbed me off..

Weakness in the hind quarters is an issue as well because I am trying to build muscle and tone his hind quarters to help with the HD..

The vet also said that they don't need to check as often and would only check his bloods after 6 months - I would prefer a 3 month check, considering there 'could' be an issue with the liver..

Poor lad, hasn't eaten all day today - he is happy enough but really quite flat today.

Individual dogs react differently to phenobarbital. Or maybe it's different types of seizure disorders. My old girl (~31 kg) had massive cluster seizures after a reaction to a flea medicine. Thereafter she has had occasional focal seizures. She gets 1/2 tablet (1 tab = 1 gr = 68.4 mg) once a day (the original prescription was two tabs a day, one every 12 hrs). No side effects that I can see. At two tabs a day she was groggy, but developed tolerance rapidly. Half a tab a day is sufficient to prevent seizures; she's been on that dose for more than two years. I've taken her off and the seizures return. The vets check her blood levels every year or so and say the level is very low and they are surprised it works, but it does. At low levels they assure me it's no danger to the liver.

I don't think they understand seizure disorders very well, and I would encourage supervised experimentation. Who knows, you may be lucky and find that Zig is effectively treated with a very low dose.

p.s. the other thing to beware of with phenobarbital is that it is a controlled substance. Around here it has a street value of around $20/tablet. If you have druggies around your area, make sure to store it in a non-obvious place.

Edited January 30, 2014 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

Controlled substance? I've never heard of drug addicts wanting phenobarbital. I don't doubt you just that I've never heard of it. Are you in Australia sandgrubber? Your profile leads one to believe you're in the us but then mine also says 'overseas'.

We never discovered nay pattern or triggers for Monte over the years either. I recorded every single seizure. He had in excess of 350 seizures before he died. He had clusters of around 4 on average. He sometimes had more, sometimes less. He only ever once had a single seizure, they always came in clusters. He once went for just over 12 months without a seizure. He had tonic clonic and focal seizures and many presented in different ways. The greater majority occurred in the early hour so f the morning or very late at night when he was asleep.

[CaseyKay]

My epileptic border collie KC had many types of seizures, the most common being a "typical" grand mal which continued her whole life, but when she was younger than 5 and before she went on Kbr, she also had clusters and she also had "behavioural" seizures (trying to eat things, repetitive behaviours) which went on for many hours in some cases and were more scary to me than a grand mal! She was on Pb from 18 months and KBr from 5 years and had 6 monthly blood tests for those levels and her liver. Only in the last two tests of her life (she died at 11 1/2, cancer not epilepsy-related) did the tests start to show changes in her liver values. I logged all her seizures and never found a definate trigger, although stress could bring on minor seizures, twitching/jaw snapping but no collapse. In her weird behavioural seizures she was never responsive to me/fixed staring. Sometimes she would be focussing on something and I said something to her and she would look at me, so I knew she was sometimes just "busy" not having some neurological event! She sounds like she was a bit of a mess but she had a happy active life and I miss her very much

[ari.g]

Ari.g, we are using physio, swimming and I hopefully will have a fit disc fro K9 Pro in the next week or two. Our vet gave us the details of a physio here so we can learn to help build up his core strength and balance.

He is also running but it is controlled, not allowing him to do they typical turn on the spot at full speed..

The fit disc is what will make the most difference and swimming.

Keeping him lean has made a difference as well. He was just over 27kg and now he is 26.2kg. So about a kilo lighter.

Thanks Staffyluv. Nelsson swims occasionally, but prefers just to wade these days :). Might look into a physio for him.

Hope you get to the bottom of what's causing the seizures.

[Staffyluv]

Petit-mal (French for little illness) is an absence seizure like a brief brain disturbance. Grand-mal (French for big illnesses) is the old term for seizures at the other end of the spectrum. I think that is where the 'petty' comes in.

Yep LG, that was what he said - I honestly got to the stage yesterday where I was nodding but not taking it in..

They think I am missing the actual seizure because it is so mild but the lead up to it (all the frantic stuff) is what I am seeing and because I am so focused on all that going on, I am missing the seizure itself..

SG, I am hoping to get away with a change in diet but if he has another one, I will definitely start him on the meds.

I think we will be safe on the druggie front, we live in a pretty quiet neighbourhood.

CK, Zig does just that - he might be just standing there eating the grass (more like ripping it out by the roots and swallowing whole clumps - it is the strangest behaviour) and he will stop and stare - I think this must be the seizure?? But it is so quick, like maybe 20-30 seconds. He doesn't acknowledge me when he is eating the grass or staring, ever.

Anne, I can't correlate anything with Zig's reactions - these is no rhyme or reason as to why they start or stop.

He has had a couple that lasted no time at all and he went back to normal but he has also had two that lasted hours..

Ari.g this fit disc is the one (the biggest one) that I am getting for Zig. Our vet has recommended a physio here that we will sort some time with to get a program underway.