Did I Do The Right Thing?

[apocalypsepwnie]

Last night I took Vinnie down the road to the off leash area near my house.

When we got there, there was a miniature cattle with it's owner off leash trotting around. The owner was outside of the boundary of the area which is fenced by a rope and pole style fence. He would of had to step over to get in where he was.

As we came in, the dog rushed at Vinnie, barking and coming in hunched and low. I told Vinnie to sit which he did. Vinnie waited for the dog to start sniffing and began to present his rear as the dog got closer but instead it started to jump on his back to stand back and bark at him. The owner had his back turned and was walking away while this dog continued to harrass Vinnie.

I got between them and continued to ask Vinnie to sit while I moved this dog away. Not once did the owner call him away, he just walked on. I told the dog LEAVE GO! and he left.

Was making Vinnie sit and getting in between them the best idea? It was all I could think of at the time. Vinnie didn't seem to worried about it.

Walking home he was rushed again by a miniature pinscher. She ran out of an open gate followed by a small silky terrier type barking hysterically. I again stood between the dogs while Vinnie pulled back and tried to run away. I asked him to sit again which he did but he didn't like being there.

It wasn't till the dogs were out on the street and had been barking quite a fair bit (getting closer each few seconds) that their owner came out and picked them up.

I said he needs to be careful of letting them run out and they were being aggressive. He shrugged and said he didn't know what he could do about it as they were young puppies (10 or so weeks) and maybe my dog just needed to get over it.

He's been rushed before by other dogs. He doesn't ever have a problem with dogs that are much bigger than him and is respectful of space. He always waits to be sniffed first and will back off when given warning. It's the little dogs that are his size and smaller that bother him. If they aren't near him he's fine but he'll head off if they come over.

When I had dogs before I rarely had issues with dogs rushing them if ever. But now each time it happens the dog owner is either aloof, makes it out to be something wrong with my dog or just excuses the behaviour.

If Vinnie rushed a dog I bet I'd have the council ranger at my door with a restricted dog notice before I got home!

is it that more idiots own dogs or that people just don't care any more?

[mumof4girls]

I would yell for the owner at the dog park to remove their dog .. I prob would have kicked it away lol ..

[Salukifan]

I would not ask a dog in such a situation to sit. You're increasing the dog's vulnerability to attack when its clear that what the dog wants is more space. You're also prolonging the encounter. Deny a dog the opportunity to flee and you give it one choice only - fight. Potentially you're also encouraging the dog to ignore you for its own preservation.

I would position myself between the dog and the oncoming dog and get out of the situation as fast as possible.

As for dogs rushing out of property? Report it. People are required to have their dogs securely contained. Perhaps a visit from the ranger might encourage the owner to take the issue a bit more seriously in future.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Dame Aussie]

I don't think you did anything wrong, but i would just get rid of the rushing dog next time. I stamp my foot and yell at any dog that rushes at mine in an aggressive fashion, if that doesn't scare them off they get a kick.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Aussie3

[Guest hankodie]

Yup, well said HW.

Every time this happens to me now I position myself between my dog and the other dog, then I try to get out of the situation as fast as possible. I've taught Hank how to ignore other dogs since he was a wee puppy so that any time a dog rushes us I can call his attention to me and ask him to ignore the other dog and continue moving. I practiced this by rewarding him every time he looked at me on walks when I asked (I use a kissing sound to get his attention). It's really helped a lot in these situations and now I'm able to tell him quickly "no, we are not saying hello to this one" and we keep moving and he is happy.

I also have no problem giving owners a piece of my mind when dogs come rushing up to mine, ESPECIALLY when they're off lead in a non off lead area.

[Staffyluv]

I would not ask a dog in such a situation to sit. You're increasing the dog's vulnerability to attack when its clear that what the dog wants is more space. You're also prolonging the encounter. Deny a dog the opportunity to flee and you give it one choice only - fight. Potentially you're also encouraging the dog to ignore you for its own preservation.

I would position myself between the dog and the oncoming dog and get out of the situation as fast as possible.

As for dogs rushing out of property? Report it. People are required to have their dogs securely contained. Perhaps a visit from the ranger might encourage the owner to take the issue a bit more seriously in future.

Yes, yes and yes..

[minimax]

I would probably also avoid off lead dog parks with an 11 week old puppy...

[Simply Grand]

Agree with the advice already given.

Just wanted to say though, geez some people are irresponsible jerks! What the hell does the guy mean he can't do anything about his 10 week old puppies rushing at people on the street?!? And your dog should get over it, I suppose the car that runs his puppies over should get over it too

[RiverStar-Aura]

I guess the first thing, I would've observed the owner being OUTSIDE the dog park fence then turned around and left. By ignoring his dog, the cattle owner was being irresponsible and was just begging for problems. You need to learn to start assessing situations before they occur in order to protect your pup; it will come with time and experience. Dog owners who leave their dogs unsupervised in parks need to be avoided, as with those who are standing at one end of a park whilst their dog is up the other end.

Regarding the two dogs who later rushed Vinnie, don't be shy in protecting him. If turning around quickly and escaping isn't an option sometimes aiming kicks or stomping the ground are other options.

Has Vinnie finished his course of puppy vacs? I would've thought that 11 weeks is still too young to be out at dog parks.

[persephone]

Hmmm

You have a baby puppy. It is your job to protect him first off :)

Remove him from the situation. Vinnie. Should not be made to meet & greet , IMO He also has no need to go to a dog park. They can be dangerous places

[Salukifan]

I think the cautionary posts about dog parks and puppies go double for a breed which will grow into a powerful dog and one in which wher edog aggression is not uncommon. What a baby puppy will tolerate and what an adolescent dog will tolerate can be very different things. You would be unwise to assume that the level of tolerance he displays now will be static.

This is not a dog you want learning that rough play is acceptable, that you want to see having to deal with rude or dominant behaviour from other dogs as a youngster or that you want to learn that it's up to the dog to sort unwanted behaviour from other dogs.

The key to socialising any dog is to control the interactions it has with other dogs in its critical socialisation periods. As you have already learned, you cannot control the behaviour of other dogs in off leash areas, nor the actions of their owners.

Join a dog training club and, in addition to establishing a good bond with Vinnie, you will find opportunities for appropriate socialisation with other dogs.

You really want to prevent him taking offence to rude dogs when he's an adult.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Sandra777]

11 week old pup being rushed at by two yappers (no matter their age or size) - I would have picked the pup up and stamped and shouted at the rushing dogs - and if they seemed small and inoffensive enough I probably would advance on them and chase them, usually freaks out most dogs. Note I said small and inoffensive!

An off-leash dog park is no place for an 11 week old pup of ANY breed. Every single encounter a pup of this age has must be controlled and in a perfect world, would be positive - try puppy pre-school, obedience club or friends with suitable dogs.

[apocalypsepwnie]

Thanks for the advice. I was more asking him to sit to get his attention on me rather than the dog and in the first instance it worked well.

I haven't trained him to greet in such a way, he just does it. I also know that his behaviour now as a puppy may not be the same when he is older. I do praise him for being calm around other dogs and remove him when he gets too excited.

We have him signed up to start puppy pre school in a week and will continue with obedience training after that. It was never in my mind to not do that. I want to ensure that I am correctly training my dog by not missing essential cues from my dog and others, which a trainer can help me with.

I have no intention to stop taking him to off leash areas. At this stage I have only gone when there are no other dogs. If there are I walk away or keep him in the leashed section.

I know this may not be the opinion of other people as a good thing but it's my choice with my dog. I believe I'm taking the precautions I need to at this time with my dog at these places. I thought this dog would have continued on with his owner and should have done if the owner called him off. Vinnie was still on his leash at this point.

I haven't encountered an owner that has paid so little attention before and I'll certainly be looking for it.

After his 8 week vacs my vet adv to wait one week and then we would be fine to take him out.

[Dogsfevr]

After his 8 week vacs my vet adv to wait one week and then we would be fine to take him out.

So the pup wasn't Vac when you got it ??

[Guest hankodie]

After his 8 week vacs my vet adv to wait one week and then we would be fine to take him out.

So the pup wasn't Vac when you got it ??

Yes this also confused me. Your breeder should have already gotten him vaccinated prior to you picking him up? First vaccs are at 6-8 weeks, then a second vaccination at 12 weeks and often the last one at 16 weeks if I'm not mistaken... taking a puppy out before then and walking him around places frequented by lots of dogs is pretty risky IMO

Edited January 29, 2014 by hankodie

[dididog]

Maybe your vet just went you could take him out and about with you? Did he directly say you could take him to dog parks because most vets are pretty heavy handed on the whole waiting until they're fully vaccinated before you leave the house thing. A dog park is a very high risk area, especially if he is off lead as he can get into and sniff things he shouldn't(poo)before you even notice it's there. I'd say keep doing the walks and take him with you to certain places but avoid dog parks for the time being purely from a health perspective. I live near a huge reserve that is off lead yet even there I feel a bit apprehensive taking my puppy because even if you pick the most isolated part of the reserve, somebody who has no control over their dog will still let it bolt 500m over to you which is unfortunately the risk you take at dog parks - not everyone cares about their dogs behavior.

As a lot of others have said with a breed that has a higher tendency to be dog aggressive you want to be very careful about his interactions with other dogs when he is so young and impressionable. Do you know anyone with well behaved adult dogs he could hang out with instead? Also while its hard to avoid them, if a dog ever rushes out onto the street I will either cross the road or calmly pick up my pup and walk in the other direction(without comforting her or reinforcing any fear) which normally makes them lose interest though I'm yet to have this happen with a large dog, only small yappy things. Teach him to focus on you and ignore other dogs/walk away from confrontation and it'll save you a lot of trouble because unfortunately your poor boy will be the one getting blamed if he were to defend himself against a small aggressive dog rushing him on the street.

[luvsdogs]

Last night I took Vinnie down the road to the off leash area near my house.

When we got there, there was a miniature cattle with it's owner off leash trotting around. The owner was outside of the boundary of the area which is fenced by a rope and pole style fence. He would of had to step over to get in where he was.

As we came in, the dog rushed at Vinnie, barking and coming in hunched and low. I told Vinnie to sit which he did. Vinnie waited for the dog to start sniffing and began to present his rear as the dog got closer but instead it started to jump on his back to stand back and bark at him. The owner had his back turned and was walking away while this dog continued to harrass Vinnie.

I got between them and continued to ask Vinnie to sit while I moved this dog away. Not once did the owner call him away, he just walked on. I told the dog LEAVE GO! and he left.

Walking home he was rushed again by a miniature pinscher. She ran out of an open gate followed by a small silky terrier type barking hysterically. I again stood between the dogs while Vinnie pulled back and tried to run away. I asked him to sit again which he did but he didn't like being there.

It wasn't till the dogs were out on the street and had been barking quite a fair bit (getting closer each few seconds) that their owner came out and picked them up.

I said he needs to be careful of letting them run out and they were being aggressive. He shrugged and said he didn't know what he could do about it as they were young puppies (10 or so weeks) and maybe my dog just needed to get over it.

He's been rushed before by other dogs. He doesn't ever have a problem with dogs that are much bigger than him and is respectful of space. He always waits to be sniffed first and will back off when given warning. It's the little dogs that are his size and smaller that bother him. If they aren't near him he's fine but he'll head off if they come over.

When I had dogs before I rarely had issues with dogs rushing them if ever. But now each time it happens the dog owner is either aloof, makes it out to be something wrong with my dog or just excuses the behaviour.

If Vinnie rushed a dog I bet I'd have the council ranger at my door with a restricted dog notice before I got home!

is it that more idiots own dogs or that people just don't care any more?

I don't know if many dog owners that don't belong to dog clubs, forums, are aware of the new dog laws in NSW.

http://www.nsw.gov.au/news/new-dog-laws-boost-community-safety

It's not just dogs that physically attack a person or other dog but now a menacing dog that rushes at a person or dog. It would all depend on that persons interpretation of what a menacing dog means.

Edited January 29, 2014 by luvsdogs

[Agility Dogs]

Some great advice on here. I'd just add that you should be careful about yelling at other dogs etc etc. You don't want to teach your dog to join in and 'help' you. Timing is everything with this sort of thing, but since it all travels down the lead it is something to be wary of.

[persephone]

I am concerned - Vinnie has had only ONE vaccination ?

Not sure if you managed to read lots on vacc's ..so here are few bits from vet sites etc -

</h4>

<h4>When can your dog go to the park and walk outside without risk of infection?

As a rule of thumb, one week after the last vaccination your puppy can socialise with other dogs or go for walks in the park etc. At Adelaide Animal Hospitals this is 7 days after the 10-12 week vaccination booster. Please note your puppy will also be required to have a Parvo virus vaccination booster at 16 weeks of age.

To maintain immunity, adult dogs require an annual canine cough booster and tri-annual vaccination booster to protect against the remaining diseases for life. You will receive a reminder when your dogs' yearly vaccination is due.

</h3>

<h3>When does your dog need to be vaccinated?

At 6-8 weeks of age puppies should receive their first vaccination; this is temporary and needs to be followed up with another one at 12 weeks. After the 12 week vaccination you can then take your puppy out in public areas.

What do you need to vaccinate against?

• Parvovirus – a highly contagious viral gastroenteritis. Depression, loss of appetite, severe vomiting and diarrhoea containing blood are some of the symptoms. Death can occur very quickly.
• Distemper – a highly contagious disease producing symptoms such as conjunctivitis, nasal discharge, convulsive seizures and spinal cord damage. Treatment is often ineffective.
• Hepatitis – in puppies can cause sudden death, whilst adult dogs can experience, weakness, fever, diarrhoea, loss of appetite and bleeding.
• Canine Cough – a complex disease caused by bacterium and a virus. Affected dogs will have a hacking cough persisting for weeks. In puppies and old dogs the disease can be devastating.

INFECTIOUS DISEASES OF DOGS THAT WE VACCINATE AGAINST

Canine Parvovirus

Canine parvovirus is a disease that affects dogs of all ages but is most serious in young pups and older dogs. The virus attacks the intestines causing bloodstained diarrhoea, uncontrollable vomiting and severe abdominal pain. Dogs often die from severe dehydration despite intensive veterinary care.

It is not necessary to have direct contact with other dogs for the disease to be spread. The virus is so persistent that the infected dog’s environment needs to be cleaned with a potent disinfectant to prevent spread to other dogs. Outbreaks occur regularly throughout Australia, especially in summer.

Canine Distemper

Canine distemper is a highly contagious viral disease that can affect dogs of any age with young puppies being at highest risk.

Symptoms vary but can include fever, coughing, sneezing, nasal discharge, vomiting, diarrhoea, loss of appetite and depression. Muscle tremors, fits and paralysis usually occur later in the disease. Treatment is usually ineffective and the recovery rate very low. Dogs that do recover may have permanent brain damage.

Canine Hepatitis

Canine hepatitis is a viral disease which, like distemper is extremely contagious and often fatal. Dogs of any age can become infected, however severe cases are rare in dogs over two years of age.

Symptoms include high fever, depression, loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhoea and acute abdominal pain. In severe cases death can occur within 24 to 36 hours. Dogs that recover may develop long term liver and kidney problems and can act as carriers spreading the disease to other dogs for many months.

Canine Cough

Canine cough is a condition produced by several highly infectious diseases, which can be easily spread wherever dogs congregate, such as parks, shows, obedience schools and boarding kennels. Among the infectious agents associated with canine cough is the bacterium known as Bordetella bronchiseptica and the canine viruses parainfluenza, adenovirus type 2 and distemper.

Affected dogs have a dry hacking cough which can persist for several weeks. It is distressing for pet dogs and their owners. It is a major problem for working and sporting dogs. Pneumonia can also be a consequence of infection.

Canine Coronavirus

Canine coronavirus is another contagious virus and causes depression, loss of appetite, vomiting and diarrhoea especially in young dogs. Diarrhoea may last for several days in some cases. Although most dogs will recover with treatment, coronavirus has the potential to be fatal, especially if other infectious agents such as parvovirus are present.

Canine Leptospirosis

Canine leptospirosis is a serious disease risk in some areas and can cause high death rates. It is spread by the urine of rats and is usually transmitted to dogs by contaminated food and water, or by rat bites.

There’s an increased risk where high rat populations exist such as rubbish dumps or green sugar cane cutting areas. Incidence can also increase after long periods of wet weather, when rat populations are forced to move or concentrate. Leptospirosis is an animal disease that can be passed to humans who may then suffer a persisting “flu like” illness.

For those who like a bit more detail, the following is the Mullumbimby Veterinary Clinic's vaccination rationale and protocol:

VACCINATION RECOMMENDATIONS

Mullumbimby Veterinary Clinic (MVC) supports the guidelines of the World Veterinary Vaccine Group (WVVG)

“We should aim to vaccinate every animal, and to vaccinate each individual less frequently”

The WVVG recognises that maternally derived antibody (MDA) significantly interferes with the efficacy of most current core vaccines administered to pups and kittens in early life.

As the level of MDA varies significantly between litters, the VGG recommends the administration of three vaccine doses to pups, with the final of these being delivered at 16 weeks of age or above.

CORE VACCINES = Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvovirus vaccines (C3)

NON CORE VACCINES = Parainfluenza Virus, Canine Adenovirus and Bordetella vaccines (BS111) – the Canine or Kennel Cough group

In cultural or financial situations where a pet animal may only be permitted the benefit of a single vaccination, that vaccination should be with CORE VACCINES at 16 weeks of age or above.

The VVG has defined NON-CORE vaccines as those that are required by only those animals whose geographical location, local environment or lifestyle places them at risk of contracting specific infections. PI2 and Bordetella vaccines fit this group ((Bronchishield 3 (BS111)). MVC preference is for BS111.

The VVG strongly supports the concept of the ‘‘annual health check’’ which removes the emphasis from, and client expectation of annual revaccination. The annual health check may still encompass administration of selected NON -CORE vaccines which are generally administered annually.

The recommendation of the VGG is for initial vaccination at 8 to 9 weeks of age followed by a second vaccination 3 to 4 weeks later, and a third vaccination given between 14 to 16 weeks of age. By contrast, at present many vaccine data sheets recommend an initial course of two injections. Some products are also licensed with a ‘10 week finish’ designed such that the second of two vaccinations is given at 10 weeks of age.

The rationale behind this protocol is to permit ‘early socialisation’ of pups. The VGG recognises that this is

of great benefit to the behavioural development of dogs. Where such protocols are adopted, great caution should still be maintained by the owner – allowing restricted exposure of the pup to controlled areas and only to other pups that are healthy and fully vaccinated

All dogs should receive a first booster 12 months after completion of the primary vaccination course. The VVG redefines the basic immunisation protocol as the ensemble of the pup regime plus this first booster. The 12 month booster will also ensure immunity for dogs that may not have adequately responded to the pup vaccination course. The vaccine used will be Duramune C3 (3 year protection) (a CORE vaccine).

Following the 12 month booster, subsequent revaccinations are given at intervals of three

years or longer, unless special conditions apply. Non core vaccines should be given annually eg., the

canine cough vaccine BS111.

In Summary:

1^st vaccination at 6 to 8 weeks with C3

2^nd vaccination 12 weeks with C5 (C3 + BS111)

3^rd vaccination – only given if the risk profile deems it necessary eg. Parvo outbreak/endemic area

1^st booster at 15 months with C5 (Triennial C3 and BS111).

Annual booster with BS111.

Booster C3 at appropriate intervals (3 yearly).

[luvsdogs]

Some great advice on here. I'd just add that you should be careful about yelling at other dogs etc etc. You don't want to teach your dog to join in and 'help' you. Timing is everything with this sort of thing, but since it all travels down the lead it is something to be wary of.

I used to yell at other dogs that were loose in the streets to keep away when I walked my 1st BC when she was young. She was reactive to a lot of dogs & people & I attributed this to her behaviour. I always had to be alert to what she was thinking of doing. She was also too young when she left her litter to come live with us so I always thought she missed out on learning a lot of doggy behaviours.