Advice Needed - Incident With My Labrador

[huski]

I am not personally attacking anyone. Canetoad said:

"if it was my dog I would carry on as usual"

He said he would still take the dog to the park, it is not a personal attack or close to it to comment on his statement.

It was the "It's people like you" comment that I objected to.

I took it that Canetoad meant he/she would carry on as usual with the dog, as in be alert but not treat the dog differently e.g like some wild killing machine. Was it actually said that she/he would take the dog back to the park?

All I meant by that was people like CT who would keep taking the dog to the park. I'm not sure what else you could infer from the post, the only thing they said they would do differently is restrict ball play

I don't go to dog parks because I don't trust other owners. That post is just another example of why.

Keeping the OPs dog leashed at the park is no guarantee it won't react the same way, in fact it could likely act worse, if a dog rushed at it again.

Edited January 29, 2014 by huski

[kelpiecuddles]

My dog is certainly more likely to arc up at another dog if she is on a lead and it has a go at her, off lead she's more inclined to ignore. Personally until I saw a behaviourist I would put a cage type muzzle on the dog just to be safe, not worth the risk in my mind.

[akristin]

Sorry OP that this experience has happened to you and your lab

I will post on my experience on this thread as I feel like this incident may happen to me if I'm not watching her 24/7.

I have a labrador as well, I have taken her to the dog park as of late.. but by reading the posts through this online forum I see the real risks of dog parks. In short, I'm quite new to the whole socialistion/exploring the area kind of thing as my two previous dogs are my parents dogs so I was really too young to understand what it meant to be taking my dog out and enjoying their company.

Thus, I have gotten my two year old lab and have owned her for a little more than a year now.. My she loves human attention but is indifferent to dogs which is why I thought socialising at the dog park would be a good way to expose her to different dogs. She seems wary of new dogs, at the first greeting when a dog comes into the dog park she will have her hackles up her tail straight and staring intro the other dogs eyes with the whites of her eyes showing let the dog sniff her and she sniffs them then after that she just ignores them. Another reaction is to over active and hyper dogs is if they rush toward her she makes it clear she wants space by growling and ignoring by moving away however which in turn has the owners of these dogs staying away from us because shes showing these reactions. May be a dumb question but is this the making of a dog fight/attack? I feel like it would be a wise decision to get her checked out by a behaviourist as well ...

[kelpiecuddles]

I wouldn't be taking her close to the other dogs, from the way you describe it it's almost like she's feeling like your 'forcing' her to meet them and I think that's probably asking for trouble.

[OSoSwift]

If dogs were in packs running wild a dog from outside the pack would be driven off at the very least and at worst killed.

Now I know our dogs are domestic dogs not wild and I know there are some individuals that are social butterflies. What I don't get is the perception that a dog is only or properly socialised once it can deal with being thrown in an area full of dogs - many or all it has never met- and expected to enjoy it!

It doesn't make sense to me.

[kelpiecuddles]

I agree OSS, if you have kids you wouldn't force them to play with a kid they didn't get along with and I'm sure you wouldn't voluntarily go out to dinner with someone you disliked as an adult, I'm not sure why we expect our dogs to behave in a way we wouldn't force on ourselves.

Just to be clear I'm most definitely not anthropomorphising dogs, just making an example ;)

[Canine Coach]

I strongly disagree with all the doomsayers here. Dogs also have bad days if it was my dog I would carry on as usual, probably restrict ball play keep her closer and keep an eye on her for a while. I would also have given the poodle owners a serve.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

And the next time it happened and the dog killed the small dog, would you give the owner a serve then?

Not saying the OPs dog would kill another dog but the point is you don't know.

This is one reason I don't use dog parks, they are accidents waiting to happen. People like you Canetoad would take a dog to the park even when you know it has attacked another dog before and there's every likelihood it would again. The worst thing you can do in this situation is allow the dog to rehearse the behavior, it will become more ingrained and habitual.

what the OP needs to do is get professional help to help her understand and modify the behaviour :)

I agree completely. Many people have the idea that Labs are big soppy over friendly. I witnessed 2 incidents recently at the same large sanctioned off lead dog area. A large yellow Lab, in both cases

causing serious damage. In the 1st incident, the Lab was accompanied by a pre - teen age boy when medium size, appropriately friendly, Cavalier Spaniel giving off submissive signals (head lowered & to the side, tail down, approaching slowly & side on) dog approached him. The Lab smashed into the dog, throwing it on to the ground, stood over it & & bit hard, causing multiple deep wounds to the

dogs neck & belly. In the 2nd incident, the same Lab was accompanied by a middle aged couple, who were throwing a ball for it. Two GSD pups, about 5 months of age, were playing together, approx. 50 meters from where the Lab's ball landed. The Lab ran past his ball, & jumped on one of the 6 month old Shepherd puppies, causing wounds to the ear & the neck & front leg. In both cases, the persons walking collected the Lab & literally ran off as quickly as possible, without even apologizing, nor checking to see what injuries their dog had done.. I highly respect the people on Dogzonline Reactive Dogs thread, which is a sub forum under Training Forum. I am sure they have a huge amount of useful advice to offer. IMHO, There is such a thing as a dog giving a scary threatening warning, & if that display does not work to resort to inhibited biting. BIG DIFFERENCE is any dog which causes serious damage, That dog needs to be restricted until such time as one deals with ALL the underlying issues. At least temporarily, I would use a muzzle even when the dog is on lead & NOT let it interact freely with other dogs. AND carry something to warn off any dogs that may decide to approach yours. JMHOFWIW

[Georgina Ebony]

This might be a silly question as i know all dogs are different just like humans in terms of temperament and personality, however does the fact that she is a female have anything to contribute? She is desexed

[akristin]

If dogs were in packs running wild a dog from outside the pack would be driven off at the very least and at worst killed.

Now I know our dogs are domestic dogs not wild and I know there are some individuals that are social butterflies. What I don't get is the perception that a dog is only or properly socialised once it can deal with being thrown in an area full of dogs - many or all it has never met- and expected to enjoy it!

It doesn't make sense to me.

I agree OSS, if you have kids you wouldn't force them to play with a kid they didn't get along with and I'm sure you wouldn't voluntarily go out to dinner with someone you disliked as an adult, I'm not sure why we expect our dogs to behave in a way we wouldn't force on ourselves.

Just to be clear I'm most definitely not anthropomorphising dogs, just making an example ;)

It was stressed to me in the past to have her exposed/socialised with dogs to get her 'used' to being around other dogs so I assumed that the place to go was the dog park. It's just that we live near a dog park and we see so much dogs romping about and playing thought it would be a healthy way to get her accustomed to different types of dogs but I do understand now that it's not imperative to get her to meet loads of different dogs as it seems that she'd rather be with her human counterparts ... For sure didn't think about it as forcing her but thinking about it now and putting myself in her position I sure wouldn't like being brought to an area full of unknown people and expected to talk to them ..

Cheers for the clarification/help guys :)

[Amax-1]

This might be a silly question as i know all dogs are different just like humans in terms of temperament and personality, however does the fact that she is a female have anything to contribute? She is desexed

Given that you were told mum was a bit dominant, there is a good chance mum was dog aggressive and passed the trait to her progeny and your girl in character is much like mum. All that you can do is work with what you have and desensitise her to other dogs as much as possible which I am sure if you are consulting with Steve, he will provide the mechanism to achieve that. Don't beat yourself up over it, dogs like people are not all the same and are not all perfect in the way we would like them to be :)

[Amax-1]

Sorry OP that this experience has happened to you and your lab

I will post on my experience on this thread as I feel like this incident may happen to me if I'm not watching her 24/7.

I have a labrador as well, I have taken her to the dog park as of late.. but by reading the posts through this online forum I see the real risks of dog parks. In short, I'm quite new to the whole socialistion/exploring the area kind of thing as my two previous dogs are my parents dogs so I was really too young to understand what it meant to be taking my dog out and enjoying their company.

Thus, I have gotten my two year old lab and have owned her for a little more than a year now.. My she loves human attention but is indifferent to dogs which is why I thought socialising at the dog park would be a good way to expose her to different dogs. She seems wary of new dogs, at the first greeting when a dog comes into the dog park she will have her hackles up her tail straight and staring intro the other dogs eyes with the whites of her eyes showing let the dog sniff her and she sniffs them then after that she just ignores them. Another reaction is to over active and hyper dogs is if they rush toward her she makes it clear she wants space by growling and ignoring by moving away however which in turn has the owners of these dogs staying away from us because shes showing these reactions. May be a dumb question but is this the making of a dog fight/attack? I feel like it would be a wise decision to get her checked out by a behaviourist as well ...

What you are seeing is a stress response showing your dog is feeling insecure around other dogs and what a dog will do is what ever it takes to relieve the stress if it escalates over threshold, either retreat (run away) or fight (attack). The problem is exposing her to this stressful situation if she does blow over threshold by the body language displayed, she is likely to attack more so than retreat and once she learns that attacking lowers stress levels fast, she will make attacking other dogs a default behaviour at threshold peak.

[tdierikx]

Seriously - not every dog needs to be or may want to be a social butterfly. If it doesn't fancy the rough and tumble free-for-all at the dog park, don't take it there... simples...

My Lab is perfectly fine at dog parks - plays happily with others of all sizes and breeds, doesn't get upset if a small yappy decides to annoy her, etc... but after I've seen what she is truly capable of if her buttons are pressed just so, I simply don't want to chance that ever happening with someone else's dog.

T.

[sandgrubber]

You might also want to talk to the breeder.

As someone who has actively bred Labs, and may yet have another litter or two, it makes me cringe a bit every time I hear of a Lab being DA or HA. I know it happens. I suspect it has a strong genetic component. When you breed for a robust temperament (Labs should not be shy) you sometimes end out with robustness spilling over to combativeness or prey drive.

If any pup I bred ended out acting HA or DA, I would hope the puppy buyers would get back to me with information about what happened . . . if for no other reason than to make me the wiser about what dogs to breed from (or avoid). There is a chance, too, that I might be able to provide some pointers, or some help with socialization, or recommendations about who to go to for help. Sometimes, especially with a dog who doesn't meet a lot of other dogs, the problem is simply that the dog doesn't know how to act and needs some guidance, as opposed to a problem of hard wired aggressiveness.

Edited January 30, 2014 by sandgrubber

[trifecta]

This might be a silly question as i know all dogs are different just like humans in terms of temperament and personality, however does the fact that she is a female have anything to contribute? She is desexed

Not a silly question at all. There is evidence that desexing entire bitches can make some forms of aggression worse.

[akristin]

Sorry OP that this experience has happened to you and your lab

I will post on my experience on this thread as I feel like this incident may happen to me if I'm not watching her 24/7.

I have a labrador as well, I have taken her to the dog park as of late.. but by reading the posts through this online forum I see the real risks of dog parks. In short, I'm quite new to the whole socialistion/exploring the area kind of thing as my two previous dogs are my parents dogs so I was really too young to understand what it meant to be taking my dog out and enjoying their company.

Thus, I have gotten my two year old lab and have owned her for a little more than a year now.. My she loves human attention but is indifferent to dogs which is why I thought socialising at the dog park would be a good way to expose her to different dogs. She seems wary of new dogs, at the first greeting when a dog comes into the dog park she will have her hackles up her tail straight and staring intro the other dogs eyes with the whites of her eyes showing let the dog sniff her and she sniffs them then after that she just ignores them. Another reaction is to over active and hyper dogs is if they rush toward her she makes it clear she wants space by growling and ignoring by moving away however which in turn has the owners of these dogs staying away from us because shes showing these reactions. May be a dumb question but is this the making of a dog fight/attack? I feel like it would be a wise decision to get her checked out by a behaviourist as well ...

What you are seeing is a stress response showing your dog is feeling insecure around other dogs and what a dog will do is what ever it takes to relieve the stress if it escalates over threshold, either retreat (run away) or fight (attack). The problem is exposing her to this stressful situation if she does blow over threshold by the body language displayed, she is likely to attack more so than retreat and once she learns that attacking lowers stress levels fast, she will make attacking other dogs a default behaviour at threshold peak.

Seriously - not every dog needs to be or may want to be a social butterfly. If it doesn't fancy the rough and tumble free-for-all at the dog park, don't take it there... simples...

My Lab is perfectly fine at dog parks - plays happily with others of all sizes and breeds, doesn't get upset if a small yappy decides to annoy her, etc... but after I've seen what she is truly capable of if her buttons are pressed just so, I simply don't want to chance that ever happening with someone else's dog.

T.

Thanks for the responses, yep for sure will not be taking her back to the dog park. She seems to enjoy other activities such as going to the beach and long hiking tracks much more than having her socialise with other dogs anyway

[Amax-1]

You might also want to talk to the breeder.

As someone who has actively bred Labs, and may yet have another litter or two, it makes me cringe a bit every time I hear of a Lab being DA or HA. I know it happens. I suspect it has a strong genetic component. When you breed for a robust temperament (Labs should not be shy) you sometimes end out with robustness spilling over to combativeness or prey drive.

If any pup I bred ended out acting HA or DA, I would hope the puppy buyers would get back to me with information about what happened . . . if for no other reason than to make me the wiser about what dogs to breed from (or avoid). There is a chance, too, that I might be able to provide some pointers, or some help with socialization, or recommendations about who to go to for help. Sometimes, especially with a dog who doesn't meet a lot of other dogs, the problem is simply that the dog doesn't know how to act and needs some guidance, as opposed to a problem of hard wired aggressiveness.

I agree totally on the genetic component here, but the problem is if only more breeders would work with their buyers feedback to collectively breed better dogs. Too many crack the shits at the suggestion of perhaps they got it wrong in the breeding pairs and blame the buyers for incorrectly raising their puppy resulting in a no win situation for all concerned.

[sandgrubber]

You might also want to talk to the breeder.

As someone who has actively bred Labs, and may yet have another litter or two, it makes me cringe a bit every time I hear of a Lab being DA or HA. I know it happens. I suspect it has a strong genetic component. When you breed for a robust temperament (Labs should not be shy) you sometimes end out with robustness spilling over to combativeness or prey drive.

If any pup I bred ended out acting HA or DA, I would hope the puppy buyers would get back to me with information about what happened . . . if for no other reason than to make me the wiser about what dogs to breed from (or avoid). There is a chance, too, that I might be able to provide some pointers, or some help with socialization, or recommendations about who to go to for help. Sometimes, especially with a dog who doesn't meet a lot of other dogs, the problem is simply that the dog doesn't know how to act and needs some guidance, as opposed to a problem of hard wired aggressiveness.

I agree totally on the genetic component here, but the problem is if only more breeders would work with their buyers feedback to collectively breed better dogs. Too many crack the shits at the suggestion of perhaps they got it wrong in the breeding pairs and blame the buyers for incorrectly raising their puppy resulting in a no win situation for all concerned.

I think most Labrador breeders are sensitive to temperament issues. I know one who pts'd an imported (UK) and titled dog because he attacked a puppy! But if puppy buyers don't give breeders feedback about temperament problems, how are they to know?

As you emphasize, there is a strong genetic component to temperament, and breeders need to be held accountable for temperament. But they also need to get feedback . . . the inheritance isn't simple, and often they don't know when they produce a problem dog.

[Salukifan]

I think most Labrador breeders are sensitive to temperament issues. I know one who pts'd an imported (UK) and titled dog because he attacked a puppy! But if puppy buyers don't give breeders feedback about temperament problems, how are they to know?

As you emphasize, there is a strong genetic component to temperament, and breeders need to be held accountable for temperament. But they also need to get feedback . . . the inheritance isn't simple, and often they don't know when they produce a problem dog.

Agree, but I'd wait for K9Pro to see and evaluate the dog before notifying. It's possible there's nothing "wrong" with the dog's temperament.

Some folk are talking like breeding a dominant bitch is "wrong". I don't see it that way, especially if the dominance is expressed only with other dogs. Neither are breeding high prey drive or dogs that are too much dog for dog parks and that won't tolerate foolish behaviour from other dogs. What's wrong with a confident dog that sees itself as higher up the pecking order than other dogs?

Maybe, what this bitch needs is different management. That's where K9Pro steps in.

You know better than me but people seem to have this image of Labradors as tolerant teddy bears where other dogs are concerned - that doesn't fit some of the dogs I know and in particular the ones bred to work. That doesn't mean that there's anything "wrong" with their temperament. But they need to be managed and channelled in the right direction. Dogs like this often have a pretty good work ethic!

I think perhaps EB has more dog than she originally thought she had. Maybe this dog needs to be channelled towards obedience or RATG. But K9Pro will analyse and advise.

This dog, when grabbed by her owner in the midst of attacking the other dog, dropped the other dog and did not, while in an extremely high state of arousal, aggress towards EB. That's pretty good temperament as towards people as far as I'm concerned. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Amax-1]

I think most Labrador breeders are sensitive to temperament issues. I know one who pts'd an imported (UK) and titled dog because he attacked a puppy! But if puppy buyers don't give breeders feedback about temperament problems, how are they to know?

As you emphasize, there is a strong genetic component to temperament, and breeders need to be held accountable for temperament. But they also need to get feedback . . . the inheritance isn't simple, and often they don't know when they produce a problem dog.

Agree, but I'd wait for K9Pro to see and evaluate the dog before notifying. It's possible there's nothing "wrong" with the dog's temperament.

Some folk are talking like breeding a dominant bitch is "wrong". I don't see it that way, especially if the dominance is expressed only with other dogs. Neither are breeding high prey drive or dogs that are too much dog for dog parks and that won't tolerate foolish behaviour from other dogs. What's wrong with a confident dog that sees itself as higher up the pecking order than other dogs?

Maybe, what this bitch needs is different management. That's where K9Pro steps in.

You know better than me but people seem to have this image of Labradors as tolerant teddy bears where other dogs are concerned - that doesn't fit some of the dogs I know and in particular the ones bred to work. That doesn't mean that there's anything "wrong" with their temperament. But they need to be managed and channelled in the right direction. Dogs like this often have a pretty good work ethic!

I think perhaps EB has more dog than she originally thought she had. Maybe this dog needs to be channelled towards obedience or RATG. But K9Pro will analyse and advise.

This dog, when grabbed by her owner in the midst of attacking the other dog, dropped the other dog and did not, while in an extremely high state of arousal, aggress towards EB. That's pretty good temperament as towards people as far as I'm concerned. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Some good points raised indeed. I am speaking from working GSD experience here not Labs, but in general many using the term "dominant" can range from a genuinely dominant dog to a fear biter with defensive reactivity, the latter couldn't be further from the truth in terms of "dominance". In GSD's, dominant dogs are not reactive aggressive in fact some are so self confident and so carefree it's hard to create aggression in them for a working purpose unless you try to get them off the lounge or make them do something they don't want to do with physical conflict, then the growling/protesting threatening to bite comes out. Dominant Alfa type GSD's are handler hard more than anything and dog aggressive towards dogs who challenge them for their lead role, albeit around strange dogs they can trigger fights from posturing, but dominant dogs are rarely snappy reactive and usually handlers are first to get bitten by their own dog by trying to physically dominate them.

In the case with the Lab retrieving the ball, a dominant dog wouldn't generally drop it's ball to attack another dog approaching, neither would a hard prey driven dog release the prey without severe provocation to loose drive to not complete the retrieve. On the other hand, a nervy dog will break retrieve drive when overwhelmed by environmental insecurity, which may be the approach of other dogs, loud noises or aversion etc where the cracks in a dog's core hardness appear the most when under pressure, again this a generalisation of what you would normally see in test of a GSD, Rotty, Malinois potential hardness in a working role, but the same hardness and environmental stability makes a glorious pet dog too less the dominance for a pet which is a handful.

I am interested in Steve's assessment of the OP's Lab as to what was perhaps happening in attack of the little dog?