Boy 9 Seriously Injured In Dog Attack

[Purdie]

Amax-1...Every dog regardless of how ''stable''a temperament an owner thinks they have is capable of biting.

If you believe otherwise then with respect you need to do some serious research into dog behaviour ..

[Christina]

My view isn't popular in these pc times. Not saying this is exactly what happened but it makes the point. Kid hits dog on head, kid gets bitten perhaps badly. Tough luck don't hit dog on head again.

When I was very young my friends 4 or 5 year old brother used to sit on 6 foot Wall and tease German Shepherd. One day he fell in and they chewed him up a bit. Every body concerned knew who was at fault and there was never a mention of putting the dogs down.

Pity that kind of pragmatism has been replaced by the nonsense we have today.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk

No one really knows what happened in this particular sad event however I see where you are coming from.

Hate it when I hear people with children saying our dog is 100% reliable it takes anything from the children. Pulling its ears, tail, hanging around it neck etc.

The dog shouldn't have to take anything & any dog will bite given enough reason or pain.

Why don't they teach or discipline their children that a dog is not to be treated this way instead of euthanising the dog when it reacts ?

The degree of attack should be considered. A sharp bite if dog is tormented is forgivable, mauling is not.

Very sad & tragic event for all concerned whatever happened to cause it.

[trinabean]

Why do you feel the need to constantly re-sign up with a new username to come back and argue the same points? What do you get out of it?

I wonder the same thing.

[Rosetta]

My view isn't popular in these pc times. Not saying this is exactly what happened but it makes the point. Kid hits dog on head, kid gets bitten perhaps badly. Tough luck don't hit dog on head again.

When I was very young my friends 4 or 5 year old brother used to sit on 6 foot Wall and tease German Shepherd. One day he fell in and they chewed him up a bit. Every body concerned knew who was at fault and there was never a mention of putting the dogs down.

Pity that kind of pragmatism has been replaced by the nonsense we have today.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk

No one really knows what happened in this particular sad event however I see where you are coming from.

Hate it when I hear people with children saying our dog is 100% reliable it takes anything from the children. Pulling its ears, tail, hanging around it neck etc.

The dog shouldn't have to take anything & any dog will bite given enough reason or pain.

Why don't they teach or discipline their children that a dog is not to be treated this way instead of euthanising the dog when it reacts ?

The degree of attack should be considered. A sharp bite if dog is tormented is forgivable, mauling is not.

Very sad & tragic event for all concerned whatever happened to cause it.

[Amax-1]

Amax-1...Every dog regardless of how ''stable''a temperament an owner thinks they have is capable of biting.

If you believe otherwise then with respect you need to do some serious research into dog behaviour ..

The problem is that I have conducted some behavioural research albeit not purposely but part and parcel of my line of work from breeding to training and handling primarily GSD's in service roles, that is training dogs to bite in apprehension and protection roles and opposite of that of course is having the control to stop them either in a passive or full drive mindset.

I agree that every dog has the mechanical action if you like to slam his or her jaws shut with teeth involved to cause substantial injury to a person or other animal, that is a given, but because of the mechanical factor, doesn't mean that every dog is likely to clamp down on human flesh especially for no apparent reason, dogs do bite for a reason and depending upon how we view the reason determines the result of different opinions as to cause of the bite.

A common opinion for example, a dog bit a child because it wasn't effectively socialised and wasn't used to kids? Are we saying it is a good dog but incorrectly raised? My opinion is that the dog has weak nerves from a genetic perspective biting a child in defence drive out of fear as close proximity with a child caused anxiety. I can absolutely tell you that a dog of strong nerve platform completely un-socialised with kids will not bite them as the dog has the genetic self confidence not see threat or suffer anxiety or fear with a new encounter or experience......the dog doesn't care, see's a little human, so what!! Socialisation is a great thing as an aid to environmental stability as prevention of possible unsocial behaviour and fear induced reactivity if the nerve of the dog is not perfectly sound. However, a dog of good stable character doesn't need socialising to avoid bite possibility as they take new experiences in their stride.

Another example: Food aggressive Labradors, defensive of their food being something highly valuable. Take the same dog and gunfire test it.......the dog will fail, guaranteed, it won't have the nerve platform to sustain gunfire anymore that it has the nerve platform not become anxious and snappy at someone close to their food dish.

The more we make excuses and find reason for indiscriminate bites being a normal reaction from a stable dog, the more we will keep breeding unstable dogs and keep making excuses for the behaviour. :)

[Alyosha]

We need to also keep a lid on what we consider a "normal" reaction. A normal dog, of a broad range of temperaments and breeds, can react to mishandling in certain ways.

To my mind, a snap or bite and a move-away can be within the realms of "normal" depending on circumstances and provocation. To go into a sustained attack mode is a different thing and potentially not a temperament trait that should be desired or tolerated.

[Crisovar]

Another example: Food aggressive Labradors, defensive of their food being something highly valuable. Take the same dog and gunfire test it.......the dog will fail, guaranteed, it won't have the nerve platform to sustain gunfire anymore that it has the nerve platform not become anxious and snappy at someone close to their food dish.

Have you tested this ? I have had resource guarder who were excellent working gundogs.

[Amax-1]

Another example: Food aggressive Labradors, defensive of their food being something highly valuable. Take the same dog and gunfire test it.......the dog will fail, guaranteed, it won't have the nerve platform to sustain gunfire anymore that it has the nerve platform not become anxious and snappy at someone close to their food dish.

Have you tested this ? I have had resource guarder who were excellent working gundogs.

Yes, I have tested two Labradors and a Golden Retriever who were resource guarders along with many GSD's assumed to be caused by upbringing and environmental factors and not a temperament fault of the dog. I don't know that resource guarders are ideal in gundog application that the reliability of release of retrieve is as good as dogs who don't practice the behaviour? Resource guarding food in GSD's spills over to other prize possessions in prey with a natural avoidance of release, that is a resource guarder of food in bitework training shows evidence in other areas for example dogs who resist the "out" command and show aggression from forced release of a prey item.

Commonly in pet dogs, the food resource guarder will project the same behaviour in play when attempting to remove of have the dog drop a toy, the dog will growl in protest of release. Dogs who don't resource guard with aggression don't growl by default in games of tug, they just pull and tug in silence. Growling in tug games is not a sign of strong nerve as the growl is a fear display of loosing their item, where a display of confidence is silence, that is the dog generates it's energy into the power of tugging, not threatening the opponent with a bite should they win.

The greater the nerve strength a dog has, the higher the resistance the dog has to act aggressively and bite. Plenty of members here on the forum will have dogs of all breeds, shapes and sizes who a pretty bomb proof in all environments and are bite safe with people, animals and kids which demonstrates the stability of these dogs in excellence of nerve strength, temperament and character. It's dogs like this who should be bred on to produce family pets to reduce bite statistics IME. :)

[Simply Grand]

Amax, I think your views are coloured by your extensive experience with dogs of a particular "type" and application ie. those suited or potentially suited to protection type work. I don't know that you can extrapolate that to all dogs in all situations.

I don't know if there is research but I'm sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of dogs that growl during play, including tug, where it is not a sign of fear at losing the item but rather a response to the arousal of play.

[Diva]

I have dogs who growl when playing tug, so did my previous dogs. Never had a resource guarder, they will give me anything at anytime, including the food from their mouths and their favourite toys, with no sign of resentment or aggression. I do not believe there is a correlation between resource guarding and growling while playing. Not in my breed.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Diva

[Amax-1]

Amax, I think your views are coloured by your extensive experience with dogs of a particular "type" and application ie. those suited or potentially suited to protection type work. I don't know that you can extrapolate that to all dogs in all situations.

I don't know if there is research but I'm sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of dogs that growl during play, including tug, where it is not a sign of fear at losing the item but rather a response to the arousal of play.

Actually, I have been fortunate I guess given that playing tug with potential service dogs and raising puppies for that line of work has extended into people asking me for demonstrations and teaching the game of tug with owners of many breeds. Growling on the tug is sign of pressure that exceeds play....play and excitement in prey drive exhibits high pitched yaps and whines which to date I am yet experience anything different from any breed, not that I have played tug with every breed of course, perhaps there are some breeds who growl in pleasure and if that's the case I will stand to be corrected from the people experienced with growly breeds.

Growling in general terms is a precursor to bite aggressively, and although they will all growl eventually dependant on pressure applied and threshold at which a dog switches into defence drive, early growlers on a tug toy with little pressure I have found in the breeds I have tested and taken an interest in the phenomena, have also been the dogs more prone to resource guarding with an aggressive response.

If you watch a dog carefully playing tug; on the initial bite and tug there is no growling, then as the dog tugs harder and the handler tugs harder against the dog, the growling begins......then if the handler releases the pressure where the dog starts to win......the growling stops. The growling is actually the dog switching into defence drive to retain and win the tug, in other words protection mode of the possession is what the growling indicates.

[Amax-1]

I have dogs who growl when playing tug, so did my previous dogs. Never had a resource guarder, they will give me anything at anytime, including the food from their mouths and their favourite toys, with no sign of resentment or aggression. I do not believe there is a correlation between resource guarding and growling while playing. Not in my breed.

The growling is resource guarding in attempt retain or win the tug, the tugging against the dog is what switches on the growling. Dogs of different temperament and character will switch on the growl at different levels of pressure, where a dog who resource guards food aggressively will also show a threshold to growling or snapping to guard or win any resource that the dog finds valuable IME. In other words I am yet to find a dog with a high threshold to growling on the tug to be an aggressive resource guarder, however with good training much of this can be modified in behaviour, but in relation to pet dogs biting people who are not trained, the low threshold dogs will bite more readily than the high threshold dogs by genetic character.

[Diva]

No, the growling in play is play.

[staffydave]

My fella after being home all day always greets me with a massive stretch and a long deep growl when i walk in the door. He growls in a many situations when bite aggression is no where to be seen.

[Snoopy21]

Well I might as well euthanize my dogs right now. They are obviously killers just waiting to snap. They are both strong, boofheaded, bull breed crosses who were bred by dodgy, backyard breeders with obviously inferior genetics. They growl at each other in play, and the younger will growl while tugging. I suppose I should never have gotten them at all since it was only to make me look scarier.

This thread has crossed over into the ridiculous. I hope the poor little boy in question heals mentally and physically.

[Amax-1]

This thread has crossed over into the ridiculous. I hope the poor little boy in question heals mentally and physically.

That's unfortunately the reason why this poor little boy was attacked from people who refuse to accept dog behaviour where aggression is involved. I don't expect anyone who hasn't trained dogs to bite people on command in law enforcement roles to understand the concept of aggression.....neither did I understand it when preventing bite potential as a pet dog owner until training dogs to purposely bite and apprehend offenders.

[Amax-1]

My fella after being home all day always greets me with a massive stretch and a long deep growl when i walk in the door. He growls in a many situations when bite aggression is no where to be seen.

Are you saying out of interest, that a dog growling around the kids should be treated as nothing to be concerned about due to aggression not seen in your dog's growling, or put it down to just play and she'll be right?

[staffydave]

Yep thats what im saying allow your dog to growl at children. Cmon wat kind of rediculous question is that. im simply pointing out there is such a thing as context in behaviour just like every bark or wag of a tail does not have the same meaning. My dog doesnt bark but he makes a number of different vocalisations this deep growl is just one of them . I am well aware of his growl when he means business the difference is obvious to me.

Edited January 27, 2014 by staffydave

[~Anne~]

mastiff-cross and male American bulldog

In my experience people have a pair of dogs like this for one reason and that's intimidation factor which usually comes with allowing the flexing of some muscle being signs in the dog they appreciate, then one day sadly this happens.

It's not a breed bash I am speaking, it's a genetic configuration in dogs like this that people throw together to create a tough factor not unlike they did years ago with GSD's and Doberman and the breeders of these type of dogs are responsible for the tightening and targeting of Bull breeds within the BSL structure as too many are purposely bred for aggression where the aggression is in the wrong place in the dog's character for usability and stability necessary in a family pet.

Are you serious with this comment! Surely not. :laugh: I'm trying very hard to look at it seriously but it's impossible.

Do you honestly believe that people who own multiple dogs, which might be considered strong or large, only own the dogs to intimidate? Who or what are they intimidating and what kinds of dogs do you think they might have to accomplish this intimidation?

Unfortunately, not everyone has the same vision of dogs and their uses as the people who participate in pet dog forum discussions, sad but true. In fact it reached a point in the GSD breed where breeders would actually advertise unsuitability as guard dogs to deter the clowns calling up wanting tough dogs for the wrong reasons and if you have ever bred and sold powerful breeds, GSD's Rotties, Dobes particularly, as most breeders of these would confirm that the amount of clowns seeking dogs for guarding, protection and intimidation are most definitely out there.

We can be thankful that the majority of breeders of the more iconic working/protection breeds are careful in breeding A:Sound temperament and character B: Refusing to sell their dogs to clowns who intend to use them for the wrong reasons so what happens is the clowns move on to breed and supply from other breeds of strength which the American Bulldog is part of that group along with Bull breeds, Mastiff's and the like bred on unstable characters and temperament in a BYB fashion to supply the type of dog the clowns admire.

The fact is that good stable dogs regardless of breed don't bite kids full stop unless they are severely tormented or abused by the kid in question. Sadly people owning dogs who have bitten kids tend to make excuses for why the dog reacted and dogs who bite randomly without torment generally do so out of fear, good stable dogs don't bite

because they don't fear and don't care. Like it or not and sugar coat reactivity into something normal in a dog caused by anything other than unstable temperament and character and you have a dog likely to bite kids or anyone for that matter.

Your ability to generalise and drop the populace all into one basket is quite remarkable.

Sure, there are people who own large strong breeds who shouldn't. That is far different from your blanket statement of:

In my experience people have a pair of dogs like this for one reason and that's intimidation factor which usually comes with allowing the flexing of some muscle being signs in the dog they appreciate, then one day sadly this happens.

[Snoopy21]

So my apparent lack of understanding is why this little boy was attacked? That doesn't even make sense. There is not enough evidence in the article linked to explain why this child was attacked and you know that. We all know that the media prints few reliable facts in stories like this - the breed of the dogs changed once already. I find it extraordinary that you believe that no one except you can understand dog aggression and so the rest of us are causing children to be attacked by dogs. I suppose I've just dodged a bullet given that my big girl is now 6 and still hasn't bitten any kids.....

(I'm not claiming to be an expert on dog behaviour or aggression. I don't work with dogs and I don't train them for performance. I do my best to understand my own dogs, and work with them to shape their behaviour. I do have some basic understanding of how gene expression is impacted by environment - something which you seem to have overlooked.)