A Hypothetical Question For Breeders

[Bjelkier]

Whats the point of a standard then if people just breed whatever the hell they want?

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Wow, that makes it really hard for people. You may end up with people having to find a bitch that is of substandard quality potentially (because that's all someone would let you have on main/you end up going to a breeder that you wouldn't really choose but they will let you have a bitch on main) or you possibly end up trying to get a prefix with another person because they will only do co-owns (and I can see that being a nightmare!). That really puts new people in a very tricky situation and also puts those who have been breeding for a while in a tricky situation if they want to co-own but not share a prefix. It doesn't feel like this is productive to keep people (or entice people) in to the world of pedigree dogs, there will be a whole heap of people that will find this too hard and end up going the BYB route which is a real shame. Makes me glad I'm in Vic at the moment!

(note - I haven't read the whole thread just the first bit and the last bit so I may have missed some info!)

most people don't get into breeding until after they have been showing for a while. So not so much of a problem.

When I think of my breed I still think it would be difficult. I've owned the breed but only started showing just with my last dog. And in my breed most bitches to be on main register (from breeders that I would actually buy from) go out on a co-ownership. I would hate to be forced in to buying from a breeder that I really didn't want to because I needed to have a bitch completely in my name to be able to get a prefix. I know it is different breed to breed and breeder to breeder, but I think there is the potential for it being an issue. Not to mention what others have said about performance vs showing. Showing certainly is the secondary thing for me, the performance work is more important to me (because I love doing it as do my dogs!). In saying that my dog will be shown to get his Aust Ch. I just think it all gets tricky and for newbies it already is tricky to start with.

[kelpiecuddles]

Because there will always be people that breed whatever the hell they want Bjelkier. What do you think people who breed oodles are doing, they are breeding what they perceive as a good dog for whatever reasons they like. Doesn't mean people breeding to standard approve of it but it happens everywhere as we know. It's generally tolerated in farm dogs because farmers are breeding for their own purpose and generally only to replace their dogs over the years and/or to supply other locals with good working animals.

ETA: It's also how breeds were developed over the years, people working their dogs found the available animals didn't suit their needs and so they tweaked them by cross breeding to create a dog that did suit. It used to be that the measure of a dog was how well it did the work, now it's does it fit the standard.

Edited January 15, 2014 by kelpiecuddles

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I noticed that it seemed to be very much a case of "Your only a good breeder if you showed for a long time first", any other kind of entry to the world of breeding seems very much frowned upon on the basis that you couldn't possibly learn about what makes up a good animal in any other way.

Not at all but just because your dog works doesn't mean it fits the breed standard either .

Many working animals have been so altered to suit what they want its hard to even recognize them as a breed ,certainly the case in my breed .

If you can do the dual purpose thing wonderful & maintain the breed true to standard even better .

AS for the prefix thing i don't see what the big issue is about the prefix.

I mean who applies for a prefix before getting there dog anyway ??In the 30 plus years of being in the dog world its not a topic that has come up or been an issue .

Given you wouldn't dream of mating a bitch till around 2 yrs applying for a prefix is simple .

The reality is what the OP wants they may not get anyway prefix wise

A lot of people apply for prefixes before getting in to breeding. I have a prefix and have no intent of breeding in the very near future. But I wanted a particular name for if/when I do breed - it means a lot to me. Plus it gives a name to me and my dog family and I can spruik their achievements to the people I know! Plus I have to say going through the tests and speaking to breeders (as part of the process of getting a prefix) I think is a good thing to do as part of your thought/planning process if you are considering ever breeding. I found it a relatively educational experience (and partly because I thought it might need to be a bit more stringent) and it certainly got me talking to more breeders about all such things, and obviously there will be more conversations if/when I do get a bitch.

[Steve]

Kelpiecuddles - You certainly are looking at taking on a huge challenge if your breed of choice is Bassets and hoping to breed with modern dogs available from show lines in this country whilst selecting for their hunting ability. Might I suggest while you are waiting to begin you consider doing this course MDBA .

It will help you to side step some of the brick walls,realistically set your goals and selection priorities and might even save you from being beaten to a pulp by some others you will meet in the dog world.

[kelpiecuddles]

It's definitely on the cards Steve, as I said breeding is a long way off yet, my first dogs will be purpose trained. Right now I'm not in the right place to breed and as such it's not something I will be doing just yet :)

[Salukifan]

Because there will always be people that breed whatever the hell they want Bjelkier. What do you think people who breed oodles are doing, they are breeding what they perceive as a good dog for whatever reasons they like. Doesn't mean people breeding to standard approve of it but it happens everywhere as we know. It's generally tolerated in farm dogs because farmers are breeding for their own purpose and generally only to replace their dogs over the years and/or to supply other locals with good working animals.

ETA: It's also how breeds were developed over the years, people working their dogs found the available animals didn't suit their needs and so they tweaked them by cross breeding to create a dog that did suit. It used to be that the measure of a dog was how well it did the work, now it's does it fit the standard.

And after the crossbreeding and tweaking, they line bred to set type and then came the breed standards to define it in the ideal.

What non-ANKC breeders do isn't relevant here.

You don't breed at odds with a recognised breed standard as Canine Control members without breaching the Code of Ethics of your state.

If people are not breeding to a breed standard, then they shouldn't be doing so under an ANKC registered prefix.

It is still the measure of a dog how well it does the work and how well it meets a breed standard may be part of that. I don't care how fast a Whippet runs if it is as big as a Greyhound. Seemingly trivial breed standard requirements (like size limits) DO matter and a dog as big as a greyhound cannot turn on a hare like a proper Whippet can.

A thorough understanding of the breed standard of your breed is essential. That doesn't just include the whats of the contents but the whys. If you think some aspect of the breed standard is unimportant, then in my opinion, you don't understand the standard properly.

A "deep melodious voice" might not matter a damn in Bassets bred for harnessed tracking work but it matters a great deal in a pack hound bred to be followed on foot. This is why a definition of what "working ability" is becomes important.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[kelpiecuddles]

I didn't once say that I didn't care about the standard, in fact I've said just the opposite many time pretty clearly I thought. Someone put up a photo of a dog that isn't a basset bred to standard and basically stated that a basset bred to standard wouldn't be able to do their job because this is what some bloke over in the UK breeds for his purposes, all I said was that is what HE breeds not what I intend to breed.

[Salukifan]

I didn't once say that I didn't care about the standard, in fact I've said just the opposite many time pretty clearly I thought. Someone put up a photo of a dog that isn't a basset bred to standard and basically stated that a basset bred to standard wouldn't be able to do their job because this is what some bloke over in the UK breeds for his purposes, all I said was that is what HE breeds not what I intend to breed.

Someone put up a photo of a working Basset hound bred for hunting and said a show bred dog would have trouble. They are both bred to standard.

Indeed, the working type is probably more reflective of the dog that the standard was set to reflect than the bench dog. The difference is in interpretation.

[kelpiecuddles]

I did say that somewhere back in the thread too.

there is a pack of working bred bassets in the link I posted in post 80. They are very much like my current girl and much closer to the show standard but they are still working dogs.

[kelpiecuddles]

There are some great old photos from the 40s of Skycastle hunting bassets of a few different types in this link, you can see that in those photos they are very similar to the basset I have in my backyard, certainly not leggy like the one shown earlier. Beautiful dogs doing the job they were bred for and doing it well.

http://www.skycastlefrenchhounds.com/60anniv.php

[Salukifan]

There are some great old photos from the 40s of Skycastle hunting bassets of a few different types in this link, you can see that in those photos they are very similar to the basset I have in my backyard, certainly not leggy like the one shown earlier. Beautiful dogs doing the job they were bred for and doing it well.

http://www.skycastle...com/60anniv.php

Most of those dogs show considerably more daylight under them than the Bassets in the ring around here. All bar 3 photos are of PBGVs anyway.

[kelpiecuddles]

Similar amount of daylight as my basset who is from champion show lines. Even within show dogs there is variation otherwise showers wouldn't talk about how different judges prefer different types of dogs within the standard. Some of those dogs are crossed with longer legged hounds but there are certainly plenty of short legged ones.

I'm not sure what relevance the fact that there are only three pictures on there has? the previous person supplied one picture, is there some sort of competition here I missed? Longer legged dogs were bred to make the hunt faster paced and more 'exciting' which isn't in my list of priorities.

Edited January 15, 2014 by kelpiecuddles

[Rebanne]

There are some great old photos from the 40s of Skycastle hunting bassets of a few different types in this link, you can see that in those photos they are very similar to the basset I have in my backyard, certainly not leggy like the one shown earlier. Beautiful dogs doing the job they were bred for and doing it well.

http://www.skycastle...com/60anniv.php

Most of those dogs show considerably more daylight under them than the Bassets in the ring around here. All bar 3 photos are of PBGVs anyway.

seems they are cross bred heavily to the PBGV

[Salukifan]

Similar amount of daylight as my basset who is from champion show lines. Even within show dogs there is variation otherwise showers wouldn't talk about how different judges prefer different types of dogs within the standard. Some of those dogs are crossed with longer legged hounds but there are certainly plenty of short legged ones.

I'm not sure what relevance the fact that there are only three pictures on there has? the previous person supplied one picture, is there some sort of competition here I missed? Longer legged dogs were bred to make the hunt faster paced and more 'exciting' which isn't in my list of priorities.

The relevance to me is that from 1976 on, the hunt began to switch from Bassets to PBGVs - the question that begs to be answered is WHY?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[kelpiecuddles]

In later years they were yes, I was merely including some pictures which I had found in my travels that I thought were interesting, it seems that a lot of the hunting kennels did cross their dogs fairly heavily but I suppose that this is how our current breeds were developed, the basset hound club of America created the modern breed standard in 1963 although there were other standards used in breeding before that but this is the one we now work with.

[kelpiecuddles]

Petits are considered to be good hunters on small game like rabbits and things of that nature, maybe the type of trialling that is common there suited the PBGV, as they said they were moving towards faster moving more exciting breeds to hunt with so I suppose if the breed you are working with doesn't provide the speed and agility you want then you move on to a leggier one. There are many hound breeds from basset hounds up to fox hounds and bloodhounds, all have their own purpose and reason or we wouldn't have ended up with so many breeds would we.

[kelpiecuddles]

You might just as well say, what's the point of having tollers, we've got Labradors that can do the job of retrieving birds so why bother having another breed.

[FHRP]

I didn't once say that I didn't care about the standard, in fact I've said just the opposite many time pretty clearly I thought. Someone put up a photo of a dog that isn't a basset bred to standard and basically stated that a basset bred to standard wouldn't be able to do their job because this is what some bloke over in the UK breeds for his purposes, all I said was that is what HE breeds not what I intend to breed.

That's not what I said at all.

[Rebanne]

You might just as well say, what's the point of having tollers, we've got Labradors that can do the job of retrieving birds so why bother having another breed.

um Tollers do something very different to Labs :laugh: