kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I've been involved in an interesting discussion today and I'd love to see where people sit on this. It's hypothetical, not referring to me or anyone in particular and if you have read the discussion that I'm referring to or suspect you know what I am getting at I'd ask that you don't share it until the end of my little experiment :) I promise to explain more once there are a decent number of responses So here's your hypothetical: A person contacts you as a breeder, they've been involved with your breed for many years as a pet owner and have done a lot of research and decided they really like the type of your dogs and they are hoping to get their foundation bitch from you. They are happy to explain about who they are, why they like your dogs, etc but they haven't yet got a prefix yet because they tell you they can't get one yet because they need to get a bitch to breed first, what do you do? ETA: The poll is anonymous so feel free to just poll and leave if you wish :) Edited January 14, 2014 by kelpiecuddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Come on guys, need more than two votes! I promise my ulterior motive isn't nasty or having a go at anyone, I'm just curious about how changes to policies may affect new and existing breeders in the future. :) I would have loved people to include one line on why or why not but figured that was asking too much so settled for an anonymous poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) What do I do? They are happy to explain about who they are, why they like your dogs, etc but they haven't yet got a prefix yet because they tell you they can't get one yet because they need to get a bitch to breed first, what do you do? FAIL. They are either misinformed or attempting to mislead me (which is rather silly) I wonder why the hell they have told me that they can't get a prefix yet because they need to get a bitch to breed first. The first thing it suggests to me is that they clearly haven't done much homework on what it takes to be an ANKC registered breeder. Not a good start for an aspirant breeder. I have a breeder's prefix and I do not own an undesexed bitch. Edited January 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Thanks for all your votes so far, they are pretty much what I expected which is very interesting for new breeders, I'll share soon ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I think the NSW rules might be you need a bitch on mains reg first before they will grant a prefix-the op was trying to figure that out earlier. If that is in fact their rule: - I would discuss what they really knew about the breed, did our ideas and ethics coincide, find out why they wanted to breed, and why they wanted a pup of mine - make sure they knew there was no money to be made from my breed, it doesn't have a huge pet demand or go for huge prices - check they didn't want to breed or cross breed for hunting - find out what their dog experience was more broadly - discuss the down sides of breeding, and check their whole family was happy with the idea, they could afford it and they had secure suitable accomodation - get a few references, preferably people we both knew and including the breeder of their pet - talk about my inability to guarantee a pup will be suitable, I could only offer potential - talk about how I dislike the show scene but as it is the only objective ref point for the breed in Aust sadly some showing would be expected if she wanted to breed, but only to title . - if all that worked out arrange to meet, if physically possible. And then if I was satisfied, place a pup on coownership with a view to transferring over once I was confident enough. Forgot an important one, make sure they want the dog for its own sake, not just to breed and not as a way to get a prefix, but because they really want her for herself. . Edited January 14, 2014 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkabull Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 What do I do? They are happy to explain about who they are, why they like your dogs, etc but they haven't yet got a prefix yet because they tell you they can't get one yet because they need to get a bitch to breed first, what do you do? FAIL. They are either misinformed or attempting to mislead me (which is rather silly) I wonder why the hell they have told me that they can't get a prefix yet because they need to get a bitch to breed first. The first thing it suggests to me is that they clearly haven't done much homework on what it takes to be an ANKC registered breeder. Not a good start for an aspirant breeder. I have a breeder's prefix and I do not own an undesexed bitch. I noticed this too and can't answer as it would depend wether or not a potential breeder needed to have a bitch prior to getting a prefix (which at this stage they do not so I wouldn't sell a pup to them because they were lying to me). I would sell a pup to someone wanting to start out breeding as long as I felt they were going to do the right thing by the dog and the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Well since Diva has let the puppy out of the bag :laugh: I was trying to work this out earlier as I was in the process of applying for a prefix in order to hopefully secure my prefix of choice. It is now the case that in NSW you must own 'the bitch that you intend to breed' prior to applying for your prefix, so not just a bitch on mains but specifically that one that you will be breeding. Now to me that's a big call for a breeder to make to sell a dog to someone and trust that they will do as they have said and get their prefix when the time comes, etc, they could just as easily change their number and never be seen again. In my mind the expense and effort of applying for the prefix, passing the exam, etc was something that would help to weed out those who just wanted a dog to breed for the sake of breeding. Edited January 14, 2014 by kelpiecuddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Well since Diva has let the puppy out of the bag :laugh: I was trying to work this out earlier as I was in the process of applying for a prefix in order to hopefully secure my prefix of choice. It is now the case that in NSW you must own 'the bitch that you intend to breed' prior to applying for your prefix, so not just a bitch on mains but specifically that one that you will be breeding. Now to me that's a big call for a breeder to make to sell a dog to someone and trust that they will do as they have said and get their prefix when the time comes, etc, they could just as easily change their number and never be seen again. In my mind the expense and effort of applying for the prefix, passing the exam, etc was something that would help to weed out those who just wanted a dog to breed for the sake of breeding. So it wasn't a hypothetical and it is about you. Why the fairy tale? If you want to get a kick start into a breed, start with a dog. If you want the best bitch you can get then you need to establish a track record in the breed beyond pet ownership and for many breeders, that's in the show ring. A dog is easier to obtain a lot of the time and will get you into the ring and actually give you a chance to FIND the breeder you want to buy from. I'd want evidence of an apprenticeship served and a reputation estabiished before parting with a breeding quality bitch to an unknown Edited January 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 The original ulterior motive was actually simply to test whether existing breeders were aware that they will now have to deal with being approached by people without a prefix looking to get their foundation bitch, something that as we know is hard to get your hands on at the best of times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 No it's not about me, it's about all new breeders, I was trying to work it out and was curious where it would stand other people that are in the same situation. I didn't say in that post the hypothetical was about me, I just shared my thoughts on why I had posted the hypothetical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 As I said Haredown it wasn't about me I was just curious whether the ANKC/DogsNSW had made breeders aware that the requirements for new breeders had changed, it seems they probably hadn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) The original ulterior motive was actually simply to test whether existing breeders were aware that they will now have to deal with being approached by people without a prefix looking to get their foundation bitch, something that as we know is hard to get your hands on at the best of times! Most people looking to get their foundation bitch shouldn't expect to get her as the first Main Register purebred dog they buy. Few breeders are going to sell their pick bitches to someone with no track record in the breed. As I said start with a dog, serve an apprenticeship and then go forward. Edited January 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mister Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 That seems like an odd rule. What if the bitch purchased doesn't turn out as hoped or has some kind of complication prior to breeding resulting in a spey? Do they revoke your prefix or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Exactly Mr.Mister LOL I get what you are saying about 'serving an apprenticeship' haredown but given the requirements to pass an exam and pay a decent chunk of change to get your prefix I would have though that would serve as part of any apprenticeship too. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Exactly Mr.Mister LOL I get what you are saying about 'serving an apprenticeship' haredown but given the requirements to pass an exam and pay a decent chunk of change to get your prefix I would have though that would serve as part of any apprenticeship too. ] You need to establish your bona fides in the breed - and money alone will not convince a decent breeder to entrust their bloodlines to you. That's what the apprenticeship is for. People in the breed get to know you and you get to know them - just as important. Who you consider the bees knees going in and who you consider is that a few years on may change! I think i paid about $150 for my prefix. I pay more than that on average for a month's petrol for showing and 10 times that to attend most specialties. Its not a cheap activity if you want to get seriously into it. Breeding can escalate those costs into the stratosphere! I think the NSW rule is bizarre! Its going to make an apprenticeship even more important. Edited January 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think the NSW rule is bizarre! :laugh: Honestly, that's all I was really getting at :) I don't expect someone to sell me their pick bitch as my first ever dog, in fact I would have been surprised if they had, however I had hoped to get my prefix and use it as my overarching name for my kennel as I want to train dogs as working animals as well, in order to be able to say - trained by X kennels and then in the future be able to say bred by X kennels when I do finally get there. Seems I now just have to sit on my hoped for prefix and cross my fingers that when I do finally manage to get to the point of breeding hat someone else hasn't come up with something very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 A lot of people do use their prefix as you mention, they might not even have bitches they intend to breed but the prefix is their brand and why not. I can't figure out if NSW think the prefix landscape is too crowded and want to limit to people with intentions to breed soon, or they have some people claiming the market appeal of prefix while breeding unreg dogs - reg bybs . I suppose it is the later, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I guess then my concern becomes if I use it as my 'kennel name' without registering it with the ANKC am I opening myself up to A. people assuming that I breed dogs even though I only train them and copping unwarranted abuse for it and B. having some smartarse decide they like it and registering it with ANKC before me therefore forcing me to change it anyway if I do get to the point of breeding down the track. Certainly makes it a tad interesting. I did try to call them today to ask them for further information but they were closed when I called Edited January 14, 2014 by kelpiecuddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Life was a heap more simple when I got my first bitch and prefix :laugh: I got the bitch first btw. Now I sound old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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