Pre-desexing Tests.

[Starkehre]

We had a very large male Rottweiler desexed after 18 months and I can assure you his scrotum was huge, as were his testes. The sac has shrunk to nothing and didn't take long.

We had NO baggy sac debulking done :D

Some studies are now showing in that early desexing in larger and/or heavier breeds (and even desexing period) may leave dogs with a high propensity to ACL injuries, as well as all the other mentioned diseases. I believe this has a lot to do with testosterone based muscle, which significantly atrophies once dogs are desexed... more noticeable in these bigger breeds

[YvonneM]

Yvonne, I think with the old school early desexing, the balls were relatively small when removed, so the skin wasn't stretched much and shrunk away completely on it's own. I guess sac removal is only really necessary for an older dog due to bigger balls, and more stretching! :) Was your previous dog younger when they were desexed? It's a pity they didn't offer it to you this time - sounds like it might have been useful... They will still keep shrinking for a while though, so hopefully it won't be an issue for you. you'd assume a good groomer should be able to handle it?

Our previous dog was a Maltese X Shih Zu (sp??) and he was a rescue - he was desexed at around 9 months, just before we got him as we had to arrange to have his stitches out. Banjo is a Maltese, so only about a kilo lighter (he's 4kg) than our previous boy. Our previous boy's sac was fully removed and he was nice and "neat". I didn't even know there was an option to leave the sac behind ... I would have had it removed if I had have known! Good that they will shrink a bit. Groomer is great - been using them for nearly 12 years with no problems - I'll just point it out at his next visit :)

[Guest hankodie]

Your make a good point! It would be worth the extra just to tick all the boxes and if there is something lurking we might have a chance of knowing before he's sick.

He is pretty fit, but I gather as you say you wouldn't have known otherwise, that Odie was pretty well at the time too.

Was that just a general blood test or a specific test out of curiousity. Did they have suspicions she wasn't well or just routine testing?

It was a general blood test they offered all their clients who were putting dogs under (it was a really ritzy vet, totally all about the upselling :laugh:). Had absolutely no clue or suspicions that she had anything wrong with her. In hindsight of course there were small signs but when we found out about it she was pretty much asymptomatic, had a few tummy issues that I had just chalked up to being a pup. We were so shocked when we found out (as was the vet! She was blown away) they cancelled the spay and we had to take her home.

I'll be asking my current vet to do a quick blood test before putting Hank under for desexing. It's a bit of money for a piece of mind I think and if he has any issues in the future I'll always have a record of his bloods.

[Simply Grand]

Scrotal ablation (thanks perse) is a much more complex surgery than routine neutering, with more risks to go along with it - longer surgery so longer under anaestethic, longer healing time, more risk of infection and more painful to recover from. I wouldn't do it.

Yvonne, I'd expect Banjo's to completley disappear eventually, both my boys had flappy skin for a while but after a couple of months were completely smooth :)

[aliwake]

I'm glad you guys know the correct terminology - I was pretty sure sac removal wasn't how the vet described it!! :)

[piper]

I didn't even know that ablation was an option.

We had a 6 year old boy desexed many years ago, the sac filled with fluid for maybe a week and then gradually shrunk to nothing. I suppose it took a couple of months for that to happen. Personally I can't see any reason for it to be surgically removed.

[Rebanne]

I adopted a greyhound who was desexed at 4 and 1/2 years old. His sac never shrunk, we called it his purse :laugh: But other desexed males I have adopted all had nothing and the one male who I have had desexed, he too ended up with nothing. I wouldn't get it done.

[Dame Aussie]

I have always had blood tests pre surgery of any kind, also fluids. It's up to you though and whether it fits in the budget, I'd rather be safe than sorry but I know lots of people don't do them with young dogs.

Re when to get him fixed, ideally I would wait another 6 months minimum and as Haredown said the bitch next door probably won't come into season again before then.

[Guest Clover]

I'm glad you guys know the correct terminology - I was pretty sure sac removal wasn't how the vet described it!! :)

I had 2 in for surgeries yesterday, neither had added on fluids (although I gave permission if it was needed). Both have bounced back with no problems. The older of the two had only had full blood work done recently so that was not needed and I chose not to have it done with my youngster.

I am another that prefers to wait until full maturity to desex, but it is completely up to the individual.

Rebanne :laugh: Harri has a purse as well. His is completely empty & I tease him becaus of his man purse.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Clover

[Esky the husky]

We had a very large male Rottweiler desexed after 18 months and I can assure you his scrotum was huge, as were his testes. The sac has shrunk to nothing and didn't take long.

We had NO baggy sac debulking done :D

Some studies are now showing in that early desexing in larger and/or heavier breeds (and even desexing period) may leave dogs with a high propensity to ACL injuries, as well as all the other mentioned diseases. I believe this has a lot to do with testosterone based muscle, which significantly atrophies once dogs are desexed... more noticeable in these bigger breeds

In bitches as well as dogs Dyzney?

[Rebanne]

Rebanne :laugh: Harri has a purse as well. His is completely empty & I tease him becaus of his man purse.

doesn't Harri get puppy pennies to put in his purse

[Guest Clover]

Rebanne :laugh: Harri has a purse as well. His is completely empty & I tease him becaus of his man purse.

doesn't Harri get puppy pennies to put in his purse

Noooooo I am a mean owner, no puppy pennies here ;). Maybe he should start collecting some now he is mature.

[HazyWal]

I adopted a greyhound who was desexed at 4 and 1/2 years old. His sac never shrunk, we called it his purse :laugh: But other desexed males I have adopted all had nothing and the one male who I have had desexed, he too ended up with nothing. I wouldn't get it done.

Stan was desexed at two and his has shrunk to nothing, a friend adopted a grey at the same time and same age and his is quite saggy, he calls it his "teabag" :laugh:

[Dame Aussie]

I love DOL, where else do people discuss different names for saggy ball sacs :laugh:

[Rebanne]

I love DOL, where else do people discuss different names for saggy ball sacs :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Starkehre]

We had a very large male Rottweiler desexed after 18 months and I can assure you his scrotum was huge, as were his testes. The sac has shrunk to nothing and didn't take long.

We had NO baggy sac debulking done :D

Some studies are now showing in that early desexing in larger and/or heavier breeds (and even desexing period) may leave dogs with a high propensity to ACL injuries, as well as all the other mentioned diseases. I believe this has a lot to do with testosterone based muscle, which significantly atrophies once dogs are desexed... more noticeable in these bigger breeds

In bitches as well as dogs Dyzney?

Sadly Esky, yes. You can almost see the testosterone based muscle wastage in front of your eyes, in our breed, in both sexes... either from desexing or suprelorin implants. Starts with the head and goes from there. No matter how much work you do building them up, you cannot replace the testosterone based muscle. The weakening affect is very significant and this is where injuries come in. Like I say hugely noticeable in my breed, less so in others, but probably not as much less as some people think.

My old girl Dyzney had to be desexed when she was 6 owing to IMT. We have her on anabolics now just to keep her strong enough to be physical enough to keep her going in her old age. It is a real juggling act, but working so far.

Our boy Jag whom is now 5 wasted away terribly when he was desexed at 2. Another case of had to desex unfortunately. He is a candidate for a torn cruciate occasionally showing odd signs off and on. We manage him as best as we can, but feel sure he will do one sooner or later.

With Rottis, I will never desex again unless I really have to. The negative consequences are so detrimental they are not worth it, IMHO. Opinions vary, but most of those in my breed I speak to agree or at least certainly those that work their dogs.

[Alyosha]

That's sad but very interesting Dyzney.

I wonder if it could almost be a different scenario for those heavy muscled breeds to be desexed early, would the muscling develop differently without ever having been exposed to the same levels of testosterone?

I know that there are studies done on the skeletal changes but I haven't seen one on the muscle before. If I mentally compare to cattle (which I try and do as there is such a visible example of the physical changes brought on by desexing - steer vs bull) then I can imagine the muscle difference. Is it not much discussed?

[Starkehre]

That's sad but very interesting Dyzney.

I wonder if it could almost be a different scenario for those heavy muscled breeds to be desexed early, would the muscling develop differently without ever having been exposed to the same levels of testosterone?

I know that there are studies done on the skeletal changes but I haven't seen one on the muscle before. If I mentally compare to cattle (which I try and do as there is such a visible example of the physical changes brought on by desexing - steer vs bull) then I can imagine the muscle difference. Is it not much discussed?

If desexed early, it just never develops. An early desexed (let's say 6 mth old male rotti) just does not develop this hormone based muscle, so nothing to lose. So it would appear somewhat similar to the dog desexed after 18 months, except the younger desexed one would be significantly taller, possibly drier (less skin because the skin never grew to accommodate a bigger head) and usually less substantial all over.

Neither look anything like the entire version, however the later desexed one be slightly closer to it.

Same with bitches, but obviously less so exaggerated because they don't have the same strength of head and overall body muscle.

Your bull/steer analogy is a good one.

It is no discussed enough unfortunately, though is becoming talked about more and more in our breed among the working folk.

But it is a tricky thing because the majority of breed enthusiasts in my circle (except for me) are showies first and foremost and most of don't deal a lot with desexed dogs and most are definitely not working them. The majority of the desexed rottis are in pet homes and few of these are around to talk about it and they are unlikely to be competing in agility, herding or dog sport.

There are a few of us that are really interested in the topic and chat about it often.

[RuralPug]

Tubal ligation is always a possibility that will sterilize both dog and bitch without affecting normal hormone activity and therefore is ideal for young puppies as growth will not be adversely affected.

TL surgery is becoming more popular with vets and takes no longer than standard desexing. Of course, it does not prevent bitches coming into season or dogs being driven to mate them, it only prevents puppies being conceived, so owners have to handle all that.

I can see a future where most breeders organise early TL surgery on puppies going to pet homes AND recommend standard desexing to be done by the owners once physical maturity has been reached. Once more vets realise that it will mean TWO basic easy surgeries over the lifetime of the average dog they will probably get on board faster...:laugh:

[Amax-1]

With Rottis, I will never desex again unless I really have to. The negative consequences are so detrimental they are not worth it, IMHO. Opinions vary, but most of those in my breed I speak to agree or at least certainly those that work their dogs.

I have experienced the same with GSD's, in fact I can tend to pick a de-sexed male GSD from the barrel like body and skinny leg look. The power and resilience lost in de-sexing in a working dog probably not as noteworthy in a family pet is substantial. In 30 years I can honestly say that I have never had typical male phenomena said to be the case with entirety.........training over-rides all of it if in fact these negative behaviours of entirety do exist?. Funny thing is the worse examples of these negative entire behaviours, humping, marking etc I have experienced were from de-sexed dogs both male and female.