WoofnHoof Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Hi everyone, I'm looking for info about the application of LGDs in the protection of cattle in the Australian (preferably) environment. I know that there has been documented success in the use of LGDs in the protection of sheep and poultry against fox predation but I'm having difficulty finding information specific to their use on cattle properties to assist in wild dog control or even if they are used in this capacity. If anyone has any info or even better can find any documented accounts of their use in cattle protection that would be great, I would like to know if they are useful in this capacity. Given that they have been used for protection against wolves and other large predators in the northern hemisphere logic would suggest that they do have an application against feral dogs but some real examples in Australia would be really helpful. Thanks in advance :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 They are used in protection of cattle and will adapt to protection of any species as long as the bonding process is covered http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Guardian-Dogs-web.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t a i l s. Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I recommend talking to Lilli or looking in the LGD thread :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I thoroughly recommend having a read of the study indicated in Steve's link. I also recommend contacting Linda van Bommel herself, she's very approachable :) [email protected] ETA Sorry, just saw Steve gave the same link, so I will amend my post accordingly! Edited January 7, 2014 by trifecta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thanks guys I have a copy of that pdf I have pmed lilli also. The resistance seems to be more that people think that wild dogs would be 'too much' for an LGD since the wild dogs can pull down fairly large calves (200kg I'm told). There is also skepticism that they won't mate with them so I'm trying to find some data similar to the stuff I can find about sheep such as stock losses prior and post the use of LGDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 http://www.dolforums...tock-guardians/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 http://www.dolforums...tock-guardians/ Thanks purdie, donks have been mooted as a possible strategy but the donkey breeders suggest that it is very hit and miss as to their effectiveness in this role, some are very good and some not so much, and no breeder appears to breed specifically for guarding in any case. Feral donks can be problematic as they still need a certain amount of handling and familiarisation in order to be safe enough around humans and for routine maintenance (feet, teeth etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) There's a fair cohort of cattle farmers who don't do any dog control because they feel the benefits of the dogs controlling the kangaroo population outweigh the loss of calves. Varies from area to area of course (probably from property to property) but that can be another source of resistance to implementing management measures. Edit - the invasive animals CRC are most likely to have the data you are looking for if it exists. If you can't get in contact with the author of the document linked earlier, the national wild dog facilitator Greg Mifsud is also an incredibly helpful and switched-on guy you could ask. Edited January 7, 2014 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) There's a fair cohort of cattle farmers who don't do any dog control because they feel the benefits of the dogs controlling the kangaroo population outweigh the loss of calves. Varies from area to area of course (probably from property to property) but that can be another source of resistance to implementing management measures. Thanks for that info Weasels that's really interesting, the people I'm talking to I think don't have extensive/very large properties so stock losses are probably more critical to them than roo control, being southern Queensland feed availability is not as much of an issue as it would be in more arid properties further north as well. Eta just saw your edit yes I will shoot off an email to the CRC tonight, hopefully they will have some figures :) Edited January 7, 2014 by WoofnHoof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thanks guys I have a copy of that pdf I have pmed lilli also. The resistance seems to be more that people think that wild dogs would be 'too much' for an LGD since the wild dogs can pull down fairly large calves (200kg I'm told). There is also skepticism that they won't mate with them so I'm trying to find some data similar to the stuff I can find about sheep such as stock losses prior and post the use of LGDs. Logically if the LGD can guard any species against wild dogs then why not cattle ? Same wild dogs and same LGD .Some of mine are working with cattle but mainly for fox control as the foxes were eating the udders off the cows etc . Its all about how big the property i and how many the dogs have to guard - you then adjust your LGD numbers accordingly. No LGD worth its salt would leave its stock unprotected to mate with a dog running with a pack no matter how horny it got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Some resources for you: http://www.lgd.org/Deer-vs-Cattle_LGDs.pdf (one example of LGD working with Cattle on a specific role) http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers/livestockguardingdog.pdf (paper on the use of LGD worldwide) http://www.lgd.org/library/protectiondogs.pdf (paper on the use of dogs against large carnivores. Generally though with a large predator load/threat you want a larger number of dogs - one or two are not going to be effective) You may want to consider joining the 'learning about LGD's" group on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/LearningAboutLGDs/ If memory serves me right, some there are some there that have dogs working with cattle. Another excellent resource is the LGD-L email list. you can find the info for the list on www.lgd.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Thanks guys I have a copy of that pdf I have pmed lilli also. The resistance seems to be more that people think that wild dogs would be 'too much' for an LGD since the wild dogs can pull down fairly large calves (200kg I'm told). There is also skepticism that they won't mate with them so I'm trying to find some data similar to the stuff I can find about sheep such as stock losses prior and post the use of LGDs. I dont think its the stock ie cattle, goat, sheep but the size of the predator. Foxes and dingos are not really a problem, they are not very big and will not physically confront an LGD. The problems some farmers face are big feral dogs that do not behave like dingos and are maybe one or two generations feral, and with pigging mix backgrounds. Farmers in Vic high country have unowned dogs killing their kelpies and cattle dogs and their stock. The complication is, the type of dog that will run down, overcome and kill big predators, are far removed from the average Australian understanding of a stock protection dog. Maremmas & Pyreneans are not as effective against big unowned dogs because they are not active defence protection dogs. Their working style ie level of aggression and wiring is to avoid conflict and deter. This is perfect for the majority of situations in Australia. Maremma are the most popular stock guardian dog in Australia because they are the best suited stock guardian dog for the Australian culture and living conditions. Big predators require protection dogs with a different sort of mentality and morphology than maremma/pyrenean. The reality is most Australia has very little understanding and preparedness for dogs that are in their element in these situations. ie Ovcharkas, Central Asia, Caucasian, Anatolia EG: Government agency contacted me wanting dogs to dispose of a group of unowned dogs killing large stock and causing havoc. But it was not logical to them, that a dog equipped for this task has a mentality that is very territorial, protective and reactive. I said, for sure you will have no more feral dogs in the Parks. But you will also have no more hikers or bushwalkers. And absolutely no, the dogs would not be happy for bushwalkers to approach. This concept could not be understood. They thought the dogs would bark and defend from a distance; somehow chase away the unwanted dogs, but not be aggressive. In Aus, farmers that do have protection dogs equipped to confront and dispose of large predators, have secure fences to keep their dogs and stock in, but more to keep human thoroughfare out. Edited January 7, 2014 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 For the first time I can remember I don’t agree with allLilli has said regarding Maremma Ordinarily when you have Maremma you expect to see no stockloss but also no dead bodies because a Maremma won’t go out and take onanything if it means leaving the stock exposed they prefer to yell and do allthey can to keep the predator away and don’t like attacking because when youare fighting one another can come in and hurt the stock . It is also true theyare far less territorial and defend the stock not the territory. But there is ahuge difference between how one Maremma works in comparison to how a pack ofMaremma work. To suggest that Maremma cant and don’t do what is required ofthem and kill the predator if required is assuming that only one or two Maremmaare in the paddock. To see them working as a team is awesome and fascinating towatch and note the differences. In areas where they are defending against un owned dogs huntingin packs the farmers have more Maremma in the paddock. In the Bulli areas wherethere is a massive un owned dog problem we have placed some which work as ateam of 7 and the owners wake up to dead wild dogs with backs broken floating bellyup in the dam. On my property the difference between what happens and howthe dogs work when there is one in the paddock or three in a paddock is hugeand it has nothing to do with the gender or the size of the dog. If you have an un owned dog problem you have more Maremma but the species makes nodifference – they work as well with any species from tiny to huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thanks for the info everyone I really appreciate it :) I think it is a shame that LGDs are not utilised more effectively in Australia, up here most feral animal management is just about shooting and baiting, which to me is a very inefficient and at best short term strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) It is not intended to say one dog is better than the other, that is not the case. and it is not about size of the dog, but differences in mentality, pain threshold and physical structure. (all working LGD sex of the dog does not matter). In an army you have different types of soliders. All soldiers are valuable and do their task. 100 arrowmen can be effective and the most efficient, othertimes 10 cavalry are required, other times you send in 2 SAS to take care of the problem. It's about inputs and outputs, timeframes, desired outcomes. An analysis about working dog efficiencies and the technicalities of how/why this is the case is not really a discussion for a public dog forums where information can be taken and misused. steve: I see MDBA is in Vic this year, we talk about our obsessions then :) Edited January 7, 2014 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe001 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 My neighbour runs 150 head on 400 acres and lose a few calves to wild dogs. And also my own dog got eaten a couple of years ago - as do many domestic dogs around here. The wild dogs are mostly dingo looking with a few brindles with white collars (like border collies white markings). One a few years back looked like an English mastiff (face mask, colour and height) but was skinny. Even though there has been an intensive baiting program the last few months a pack still lives here. Dogs work in a pack and also alone. We saved a calf a while back that was being attacked by one single very large dingo looking dog. Even the neighbour chasing it on the tractor didn't deter it. If followed the injured calf and mother all the way to the yards. She was split from the herd so I doubt a LGD would help in that case. The problem I see with LGD is that the cows tend to leave the herd to calve and so makes them vulnerable to attack. Maybe more suitable for a smaller farm but wouldn't work here. But I do question one thing - if you have a dog fence to keep the LGD in, why doesn't the same fence keep the wild dogs out. If you had a pack of LGDs (enough to cover when herds split) do they just stay with the herd and not wander. If they did here they would die the same way wild dogs do - lead poising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 There are some people near Hodgson Vale with stud cattle who had maremmas, and found them effective. There are also people I know near Taroom who have maremmas. They cited an incident where the dingoes were about, and a pair rushed the cattle, seeking calves, or weak heifers. The bitch maremma stayed with the herd, the dog went after the dingoes. There was a terrible fight. The maremma returned some time later, covered in blood. He had a few bites on his ear leathers, but the rest of the blood on him was not his. The male dingo was found some way off, dead, and the other never seen again...as far as they know. These people happened to witness this, but are aware that there were no doubt lots of incidents they were not aware of. Stock losses reduced a great deal after the maremmas were introduced. They have a lot of cattle, so have more than a few maremmas but use them mostly with the cows and calves. We had a large dingo/wild dog pack in the ridges above our property. The maremma/pyrenean was constantly on the prowl, and up on our closest point to the ridges, barking, barking. The pack got quite a few dairy calves from the nearby dairy, but we didn't have any problems. Baits were laid and the pack disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casowner Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) My old CAS would go through/over fences and bring back orphaned lambs to the house, he was houses with emus/kangaroos/turkeys etc and accepted them in his territory. Wild kangaroos etc were not, he did not leave his boundaries CAS to me are easier dogs to live with than ASD but CAS have extreme brute force when they perceive a threat and what we perceive as a threat is not necessarily what they do. I have found that Azure is a hunter and a thinker, Wolff is not reactive at all until the time to react is warranted and when that happens it is done with amazing speed and force. Understanding what drives each dog is a huge necessity to be able to live harmoniously, my two are polar opposites. For example Azure will not tolerate new people on the property and reacts accordingly, Wolff takes cues from me and if I am calm he will lay at my feet and watch the new person. Regarding donkeys my Willow showed the true nature of a guardian donkey two nights ago, I took Wolff up and she wanted to kill him she was throwing herself at the fence and then ran back to me and licked over the fence and then hunted Wolff again. If she was in the same paddock she would have tried to kill him Edited January 8, 2014 by casowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) We saved a calf a while back that was being attacked by one single very large dingo looking dog. Even the neighbour chasing it on the tractor didn't deter it. If followed the injured calf and mother all the way to the yards. She was split from the herd so I doubt a LGD would help in that case. The problem I see with LGD is that the cows tend to leave the herd to calve and so makes them vulnerable to attack. Maybe more suitable for a smaller farm but wouldn't work here. But I do question one thing - if you have a dog fence to keep the LGD in, why doesn't the same fence keep the wild dogs out. If you had a pack of LGDs (enough to cover when herds split) do they just stay with the herd and not wander. If they did here they would die the same way wild dogs do - lead poising. Protection LGDs dont stay with the herd. They intensely defend territory and have a very stong sense of pack. They are not interested in the herd except for changes of normal behaviour which indicate changes in their territory. They accept the herd as part of their environment and therefore receive cues from the herd. In effect they remove and reduce more than they deter eg: hunt and confront the hunters. They dont give a lot of warning; some will sit invisible in the grass and by time an intruder knows it is under attack the working dog is already upon it. A fence to keep the dogs in can be a normal stock fence. Traditionally it is their shepherd they are bonded to. The dogs are following him not the herd. Pack keeps them together. That is why some are not people dogs; they only need to accept the shepherd and his family. The difference in temperament traits often come from the difference in cultures that keep the dogs; their environment and utilisation. In mountains you need a dog that will react suddenly because a threat can come upon a dog and its owner/family/herd unawares. A dog that will go from stop to go immediately with the intent to carry through is required. A dog in the plains needs to run further. More thinking, less intensity is required. Edited January 8, 2014 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casowner Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) What Lilli says echoes my two Azure is the plains dog a thinker with incredible agility and stamina, one that once she recognises what she considers a threat she will work out the quickest and fastest way to get to it - many cases are life or death butterfly threats :laugh: Wolff is my mountain bear, the quiet unassuming giant that reacts with such incredible force without any prior hint that no spider is safe Blatant pic opportunity of my baby, doesn't he look like Falkor the luck dragon? The happiest face running back to his "shepherd" Stalking butterflies is serious business Edited January 8, 2014 by casowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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