I Hoped I Would Never Have To Ask This :(

[Loving my Oldies]

Sage and considered advice from Nekhbet.

Kirra is not much more than a pup. Time for her to start to enjoy her new life.

[Salukifan]

Yes two weeks foster with no proper temperament test or help for her situation has probably compounded the problem.

I think the point is to look forward and not dwell on what happened before. Dogs are quite resilient, and the past WILL come back to haunt you if you keep it in your mind with the dogs behavior.

Couldn't agree more. No excuses, no pity - just deal with the dog you have.

I would also suggest you ban future use of the term "she's a rescue" in explaining her behaviour to anyone. She isn't a rescue any more! I have seen way too many adoptive owners use that phrase as an excuse for all kinds of things and it doesn't help the dog move forward at all. Imagining a sad past may make you feel better about the dog's behaviour but it really isn't helpful.

Rescue is where she came from, not who she is.

[Inka3095]

haha so true! Our family kelpies passed away last year at 14. One was bold, outgoing and confident, but her litter sister was cringy, scared, jumpy and nervous her whole life. They were brought up together, treated exactly the same and we bought them at 8 weeks old. If Keesha had been a rescue, we could have imagined all kinds of horrible past events that had caused her to be that way, but that's just who she was.

Thanks for the help, you've all been amazing. Thank you!

[Nekhbet]

Our family kelpies passed away last year at 14. One was bold, outgoing and confident, but her litter sister was cringy, scared, jumpy and nervous her whole life. They were brought up together, treated exactly the same and we bought them at 8 weeks old.

Genetics is a big consideration as you have seen. There are many dogs out there that use extremely submissive behavior to cope with stress. Some dogs can barely take any stress at all before reacting (which is a massive temperament fault, but unfortunately too commonly seen in some breeds) Dogs do what comes naturally through genetics - so breed, species etc, and what they have learned gets them the result. Remember that last bit. A dog that lunges and bites is not necessarily inherently aggressive, it could very well have learned that displaying this behavior gets it the result it wants (so get scared, lunge out, scary thing runs away! Brilliant!) It's part of the theory of training protection dogs (under controlled parameters) but in a dog allowed to just do what it wants and experiments it spirals out of control as you have seen. It becomes uncontrollable and unpredictable.

Is your dog unfixable? Saving some weird medical condition I would say not. But take no prisoners. The soft touch and permissiveness is the open door to this happening in a dog with a poor upbringing and the wrong kind of genetics. I'm not saying be mean or shout, smack etc but don't take her cringing, rolling, goo goo eyes as a signal to back off her having to behave. Trust me, a lot of these things can be learned behaviors and she's controlling you! She's a young dog, there's no reason she can't turn around with a bit of firm, military style training :laugh: like it or lump it, get up and love life Dogs are not people in the way they think, yes PTSD is now a considered condition in canines BUT we are talking about dogs that have been through situations like a bomb exploding right next to them out in combat, not just having a shitty upbringing.

And as for the multiple home angle, there are many dogs who go through this as part of their life. Some working dogs change handlers and environments several times in their lives and there are no ill effects, in fact it's considered standard and normal. They cope fine, I just handed one back and he's going to live with someone he's never met before.

Rescue is where she came from, not who she is.

I want to frame that. That's totally hit the nail on the head.

[Salukifan]

Rescue is where she came from, not who she is.

I want to frame that. That's totally hit the nail on the head.

Be my guest. As a trainer, I'm sure you've seen the term "rescue" trotted out to provide excuses for both dog and handler... I know I did.

[Nekhbet]

As a trainer, I'm sure you've seen the term "rescue" trotted out to provide excuses for both dog and handler... I know I did.

Constantly. That or the dog is exhibiting what people consider extreme submission so it must have been beaten.

My mum is like that, her excuse for her pom x going mental is that he was taken to the shelter so he has a supposed fear it's going to happen again. Uh huh.

[Salukifan]

As a trainer, I'm sure you've seen the term "rescue" trotted out to provide excuses for both dog and handler... I know I did.

Constantly. That or the dog is exhibiting what people consider extreme submission so it must have been beaten.

My mum is like that, her excuse for her pom x going mental is that he was taken to the shelter so he has a supposed fear it's going to happen again. Uh huh.

Oh yeah, like totally. *snort*

[Loving my Oldies]

And as for the multiple home angle, there are many dogs who go through this as part of their life. Some working dogs change handlers and environments several times in their lives and there are no ill effects, in fact it's considered standard and normal. They cope fine, I just handed one back and he's going to live with someone he's never met before.

I rather feel it is a bit of a stretch to compare working dogs who have been trained and had their natural instincts honed to a fine degree with dogs who have never had any certainty in their lives such as Kirra: Dog mill, Pets Haven, and then two more homes.

I totally agree that using "the dog is a rescue" as an excuse is no way to help the dog. Using it as a reason and then properly addressing any problems/issues with that knowledge is the way to help the dog.

It's a bit like going to the doctor: if you are seeking help or a cure, you have to give the doctor your full medical history.

[Simply Grand]

And working dogs will have had the constancy and stimulation/outlet of their work throughout whereas dogs that go through mill/shelter/back yards don't have that.

However I definitely agree that many dogs are very robust and adaptable and do cope ok with it all once they find the right program and environment, and that the only thing you can do is take the dog you have and move forward. In a shelter we often don't know anything about the history of the dog so there's no other choice. Love HW's words about rescue being where the dog came from, not who she is!

Well done Inka and family for trying to help this girl as much as you can, get the advice, implement the program and see how it goes, that's all you can do. And I also think it's a really responsible thing to consider that if doesn't work out pts is likely a better option than rehoming again.

[Amax-1]

And as for the multiple home angle, there are many dogs who go through this as part of their life. Some working dogs change handlers and environments several times in their lives and there are no ill effects, in fact it's considered standard and normal. They cope fine, I just handed one back and he's going to live with someone he's never met before.

I rather feel it is a bit of a stretch to compare working dogs who have been trained and had their natural instincts honed to a fine degree with dogs who have never had any certainty in their lives such as Kirra: Dog mill, Pets Haven, and then two more homes.

I totally agree that using "the dog is a rescue" as an excuse is no way to help the dog. Using it as a reason and then properly addressing any problems/issues with that knowledge is the way to help the dog.

Many years ago now, we often used to source German Shepherds and sometimes Doberman from the pound to train top train in law enforcement and tracking/search and rescue. These dogs had no known genetic history and some had bitten people and were facing death row and others had simply wandered off and their owners were never located. They were what we call "green dogs" in working dog jargon, that is dogs that haven't been raised or trained for the job and are merely dogs of the right breeds that could be of potential use in various working roles.

In those days, a lot of GSD's and Dobes ended up in the pound due to fear aggression and environmental instability and whilst it's true that abuse of a dog can trigger a fear reaction and as a learned behaviour to ease stress upon it's self, the dog becomes a fear biter, but the actual cause of fear based reactivity is what's known in working dog jargon is a nerve deficiency in that particular dog, that is the dog doesn't have adequate nerve structure to get over bad experiences which is in the genetic makeup of the dog. In other words, if a dog has been badly abused and ends up in rescue and still displays nervous or fear reactivity after a couple of days in passive and nicer environment, the dog's recovery is too slow to ever really be trained beyond it's default nervous behaviour reliably. Whilst training can raise the threshold triggering a nervous or fear reaction, training can't put nerve structure into a dog who genetically lacks it in the breeding.

Especially where rescues are involved, dog's are often announced as victims of abuse as a reason for fearful behaviour, but in actual fact, the fearful behaviour is caused by the dog lacking the nerve structure for a better word, to get over stressful experiences once removed from that environment. The comment in regard to working dog being able to take different ownership in their stride is usually attributed to the selection of dogs bearing sound nerve structure in the first place which is crucial factor of a good working dog before the training even begins :)

Edited January 5, 2014 by Amax-1

[hankdog]

Just a reread of the post, my boy may through circumstance never have learned a fight rather than flight response. If your dad was holding her collar she may have felt her flight was blocked and she had no alternative but to fight. I always clip a leash on before I open my door and I work quite hard at keeping his leash loose when out and encouraging him verbally to move away. I have a few old leashes around the house and garden just in case, as soon as you hold a collar you tend to put pressure on which increases the anxiety as you have to lean down to the dog as well. With a leash you're upright and relaxed in your body language.

Edited January 5, 2014 by hankdog

[Starkehre]

And as for the multiple home angle, there are many dogs who go through this as part of their life. Some working dogs change handlers and environments several times in their lives and there are no ill effects, in fact it's considered standard and normal. They cope fine, I just handed one back and he's going to live with someone he's never met before.

I rather feel it is a bit of a stretch to compare working dogs who have been trained and had their natural instincts honed to a fine degree with dogs who have never had any certainty in their lives such as Kirra: Dog mill, Pets Haven, and then two more homes.

I totally agree that using "the dog is a rescue" as an excuse is no way to help the dog. Using it as a reason and then properly addressing any problems/issues with that knowledge is the way to help the dog.

Many years ago now, we often used to source German Shepherds and sometimes Doberman from the pound to train top train in law enforcement and tracking/search and rescue. These dogs had no known genetic history and some had bitten people and were facing death row and others had simply wandered off and their owners were never located. They were what we call "green dogs" in working dog jargon, that is dogs that haven't been raised or trained for the job and are merely dogs of the right breeds that could be of potential use in various working roles.

In those days, a lot of GSD's and Dobes ended up in the pound due to fear aggression and environmental instability and whilst it's true that abuse of a dog can trigger a fear reaction and as a learned behaviour to ease stress upon it's self, the dog becomes a fear biter, but the actual cause of fear based reactivity is what's known in working dog jargon is a nerve deficiency in that particular dog, that is the dog doesn't have adequate nerve structure to get over bad experiences which is in the genetic makeup of the dog. In other words, if a dog has been badly abused and ends up in rescue and still displays nervous or fear reactivity after a couple of days in passive and nicer environment, the dog's recovery is too slow to ever really be trained beyond it's default nervous behaviour reliably. Whilst training can raise the threshold triggering a nervous or fear reaction, training can't put nerve structure into a dog who genetically lacks it in the breeding.

Especially where rescues are involved, dog's are often announced as victims of abuse as a reason for fearful behaviour, but in actual fact, the fearful behaviour is caused by the dog lacking the nerve structure for a better word, to get over stressful experiences once removed from that environment. The comment in regard to working dog being able to take different ownership in their stride is usually attributed to the selection of dogs bearing sound nerve structure in the first place which is crucial factor of a good working dog before the training even begins :)

+1

[SLF]

I have read this thread with much interest. I currently have a working dog that is a rescue dog. Though I know her breeding etc because I bred her. It was just a stroke of luck that let this dog return to me after being passed around and mistreated. After I sold her to a 'reputable' breeder but that is another story.

My dog shows increased fear of large men and chains. She will not go near a dog bed either.

I am far from an expert on dog behaviour, and this little dog is only my second rescue to work with and train alone (the other was also a Kelpie). Though I make the most of the support network I have in my dog community and the family and friends I have around me. I consult and ask the advice of the more experience dog trainers and work closely with my vet.

I never take the dog anywhere or expose her to anything new without a plan. A plan of what to do if she reacts this way or that. She must know I am a safe place for her but also that there is structure and boundaries.

Routine helps I find they exhibit less anxiety when they have a structured routine of feed, walk and play time.

I never introduce her to someone new until I feel that I can have some control over the situation. For example if I know we are having people visit, and I am not sure if the dog is up to handling such a situation I will remove her completely into a safe place and not tackle this at all. If I don't have the choice and she must be there, ALWAYS use a lead. Even in your lounge room.

Use your friends to set up mock situations. So you have more control over first experiences. You cannot assume anything, you definitely cannot assume they will fall into your everyday life. They are a little bit like a ticking time bomb and I mean that with much sincerity. A lot of what has happened to them can be undone, retrained and retaught. Some things cannot.

I'm sure I will re-read this thread from time to time as there is some helpful advice here.

I wish you all the best with your dog.

[Steph M]

As a trainer, I'm sure you've seen the term "rescue" trotted out to provide excuses for both dog and handler... I know I did.

Constantly. That or the dog is exhibiting what people consider extreme submission so it must have been beaten.

My mum is like that, her excuse for her pom x going mental is that he was taken to the shelter so he has a supposed fear it's going to happen again. Uh huh.

Perhaps your mum and mine read the same book on doggy psychology...

[Salukifan]

I totally agree that using "the dog is a rescue" as an excuse is no way to help the dog. Using it as a reason and then properly addressing any problems/issues with that knowledge is the way to help the dog.

It's a bit like going to the doctor: if you are seeking help or a cure, you have to give the doctor your full medical history.

I think its valid to use "rescue" as a reason for not having a complete background knowledge of a dogs' genetic, environmental or behavioural history. Using your analogy, it explains why there are gaps in that history.

However, using "rescue" as a reason for the way a dog behaves stretches the term too far IMO. I think that poor genetics and poor socialisation are probably more common reasons for dogs' fear than abuse, but in the end we are all only speculating. Far better to deal with the behaviour up front rather than justify or explain why it is present.

[Loving my Oldies]

I always tells people (who ask) that my dogs are all rescued from various pounds ..... simply to spread the word that beautiful dogs are in pounds and to advise of rescue groups that I believe are doing great work.

As I have said, being a dog rescued from a pound can be reason for certain behaviours and a new owner needs to recognise/understand that, but not (as I have also stated) to use it as an excuse for continued "bad" behaviour. That said, one of my dogs is totally scared of just about everything and despite living with me for over 9 years, is totally freaked out if I try to make her sit. I would say this is probably totally genetic and nothing to do with her pound/rescue experience. Who knows? But I have adapted my expectations to suit her needs and she has adapted, to the best of her ability, to suit her environment.

[Leah82]

I tell people that Sarah is a rescue puppy farm dog, but more so to train the people that meet her rather excusing her behaviour :p

It's a lot easier to get people and their children to ignore her until she initiates contact when they know her history, although she's getting pretty good at greeting people at the door these days.

Plus I figure if more people know about Sarah's past then maybe someone will remember her when they think about getting a new dog and make sure to find a reputable breeder :)

[Starkehre]

"Reasons" and "Excuses" are totally different things.

The reason for certain behaviours may or may not be because a dog is a rescue dog. Regardless of whether or not it is the reason, it is still not an excuse and should never be excused.

Sometimes owners try to explain, query, discuss, analyse what might be a possible reasons for some behaviours. Sometimes others perceive this as them making excuses. It pays to be clear if others are misinterpreting.

In similar situations I might say "absolutely not making any excuses for my dog or it's behaviour, but I wondering/believing the reason for **** might be because of ****

And on the other hand some owners simply use bad behaviours in rescue dog as an excuse

:D

[Amax-1]

However, using "rescue" as a reason for the way a dog behaves stretches the term too far IMO. I think that poor genetics and poor socialisation are probably more common reasons for dogs' fear than abuse, but in the end we are all only speculating. Far better to deal with the behaviour up front rather than justify or explain why it is present.

What I did learn about rescue and pound dogs, if you got a good one straight up from these places, there were great dogs. I have never seen a good dog out of rescue go bad, they just got better with training, love/companionship and appropriate care. I believe a good dog in rescue is a dog who can endure the stress of being kicked around from pillar to post with a bad start to life and I think many who have sourced good dogs from rescue would agree that they proved to be fortunate and worthy finds. I think rescue and pound environment amplifies strengths and weakness in a dog's character and dog displaying good character and temperament at the pound will be a beauty, but the one's who don't whilst you may be able to improve them is unfortunately from my experience a potential character/temperament flaw that the dog is displaying.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Amax-1

[Loving my Oldies]

"Reasons" and "Excuses" are totally different things.

The reason for certain behaviours may or may not be because a dog is a rescue dog. Regardless of whether or not it is the reason, it is still not an excuse and should never be excused.

This is what I am saying