Inka3095 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Evening all I am just asking for advice really. About 3 months ago we adopted a kelpie x rescue dog, about 1.5 years old with a relatively unknown past. She has been a pretty good dog, though has a few issues that I thought she'd grow out of eventually with some training. She is most easily distracted dog I've ever met and can't concentrate on anything for more than about 2 seconds... she's pretty nervous, jumpy and cringy at just about any loud noise or stimulus and has her fair share of naughty puppy behaviour, but as she'd had 4 homes in four months before we adopted her, she's overall a pretty good dog. Last week however, she exhibited some behaviour that really worried us. My boyfriend (who she has met and hung out with before with no issues) suddenly became scary/threatening to her and he couldn't make any sudden movements without her backing up with her hackles up, barking hysterically and lunging at his hands. She didn't nip him but did get close. Then Mum recently had a guy come over to help set up some electronic equipment. Kirra met him with some barking but nothing too bad. Then whilst he was inside the house he stood up quickly and she did the same thing. Barked hysterically and lunged at his hands, nipping him hard enough to hurt and scare him but didn't draw blood (for whatever that's worth). He was pretty pissed off and told Mum he was going to report her, but Mum explained Kirra was a rescue and they were only just learning some of her behaviour so he agreed not to report her, but told her she'd better be careful. I'm pretty worried now. At the best, she's unpredictable, and at worst, she's now a human aggressive dog? I've never had a dog I had to be careful around humans with. Other dogs, sure, I've had fosters that have been pretty bad with other dogs and that's manageable but humans? Is this something that can be 'fixed'? There are no children that come and go into the house but if she can't be trusted around adults then I'm not trusting her with any kids. That rules out taking her just about anywhere. Not to sound hysterical myself, but is this something a good behaviorist or trainer could 'fix'.... or what else should I do? Any help would be so appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Last week however, she exhibited some behaviour that really worried us. Do what you would do if a child suddenly exhibited strange behaviour ....... take her to the vet and have her fully checked out. However, you have a dog who has been seriously failed by the human race, never knowing from one day to the next where she was meant to be or what she was meant to be doing. My heart really aches for her. Maybe this can be overcome or maybe it can't. If you go down the behaviourist route, get someone who actually knows what they are doing and doesn't just sprout jargon and generalistic suppositions. A dog is an individual. This must be very hard for you. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Evening all I am just asking for advice really. About 3 months ago we adopted a kelpie x rescue dog, about 1.5 years old with a relatively unknown past. She has been a pretty good dog, though has a few issues that I thought she'd grow out of eventually with some training. She is most easily distracted dog I've ever met and can't concentrate on anything for more than about 2 seconds... she's pretty nervous, jumpy and cringy at just about any loud noise or stimulus and has her fair share of naughty puppy behaviour, but as she'd had 4 homes in four months before we adopted her, she's overall a pretty good dog. Last week however, she exhibited some behaviour that really worried us. My boyfriend (who she has met and hung out with before with no issues) suddenly became scary/threatening to her and he couldn't make any sudden movements without her backing up with her hackles up, barking hysterically and lunging at his hands. She didn't nip him but did get close. Then Mum recently had a guy come over to help set up some electronic equipment. Kirra met him with some barking but nothing too bad. Then whilst he was inside the house he stood up quickly and she did the same thing. Barked hysterically and lunged at his hands, nipping him hard enough to hurt and scare him but didn't draw blood (for whatever that's worth). He was pretty pissed off and told Mum he was going to report her, but Mum explained Kirra was a rescue and they were only just learning some of her behaviour so he agreed not to report her, but told her she'd better be careful. I'm pretty worried now. At the best, she's unpredictable, and at worst, she's now a human aggressive dog? I've never had a dog I had to be careful around humans with. Other dogs, sure, I've had fosters that have been pretty bad with other dogs and that's manageable but humans? Is this something that can be 'fixed'? There are no children that come and go into the house but if she can't be trusted around adults then I'm not trusting her with any kids. That rules out taking her just about anywhere. Not to sound hysterical myself, but is this something a good behaviorist or trainer could 'fix'.... or what else should I do? Any help would be so appreciated. Thanks. The best thing to do is get one and see. It's hard to know without seeing the dog behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 she's not human aggressive, she is scared. dont put her in situations that freak her out, and slowly work on her building good associations with her fears, ie start with your BF, have him feed her treats while sitting down, if she seems fine have him slowly move up to a kneel while giving treats, watch her, does the movement trigger her? figure out the triggers and work on that(by going backwards, always reward when their is no reaction, and build up, as soon as she reacts you know you went too far, back up a bit). its not hard to work with a dog like this, the biggest problem people have is they push too hard too soon then declare failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 How can you assume its not hard to work with her and its very hard to not put her in situations that worry her when you never know when or where or what the next one may be? Definitely agree re the vet and a consult with a behaviourist though. Poor thing, must be rough being her sometimes. You sound like you're doing a great job managing her though, fingers crossed its a small bump in the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Your Kelpie x reminds me very much of a Border Collie I rescued years ago. He was the same age as well. He was a fantastic dog. I had him almost 15 years & I adored him. He was my heart dog BUT he would bite given the oppitunity or if he felt threatened or frightened. You are dealing with a dog that have most likely been very mistreated/abused. They are extremely fearful. What seems like a perfectly normal situation to you he may percieve as a threat. Whether he is familiar with the person or not. I managed Redman because I could. We did over come many of his fears but some we didn't. However if I were you I would get a highly recommended behaviorist to help. Dogs like this are highly unpredictable & can be dangerous. I would be keeping him at home till then. You don't want him to bite anyone else. Good luck with him. Keep us posted on how he goes :) Edited January 2, 2014 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 How can you assume its not hard to work with her and its very hard to not put her in situations that worry her when you never know when or where or what the next one may be? I didn't say "her" I said "dogs like this" I have worked with a lot of dogs like this, its really not that hard a problem to work with, hardly the end of the world. as for not putting her in situations that worry her..again not that difficult, the OP gave 2 triggers right off the bat: men and quick movements, that's a great starting point. watch the dog, when dog first starts showing signs of stress the remove the dog from the situation and make a note of what the stressor was so it can be worked on, tail, ears, eye movements, tongue flicking etc.. there are plenty of warnings before a nervous dog resorts to nipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandiandwe Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Another thing I'll suggest is that when working with her that you muzzle her (if you can and it doesn't freak her out). It reduces the chance of anything going wrong while sorting this out, will help keep you a bit more relaxed, which will help Kirra. I suggest this because I have greyhounds and muzzles are a part of our daily life. A plastic American style muzzle might work. Smear the inside and bottom with peanut butter or whatever is extra good and yummy for Kirra and get her used to good things happening when her snout goes in and build up slowly. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to working with a behaviourist, but as a stop gap which might help. I also wonder whether your bf and the man who got nipped had anything in common. Were they wearing hats or caps, beards, riding bikes, very deep voices, same clothes on, listening to the same music? I ask because hearing about people's experiences with galgos who have been mistreated all need to work out what triggers they have. It is often a feature which someone has which is shared by their previous 'owners' but which isn't immediately obvious. So things like the above, or hearing Spanish or particular words can be triggers. This also doesn't mean that the dogs are aggressive - often their fear is directed at men who have been responsible for their problems. That might be the same here. Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cali Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Another thing I'll suggest is that when working with her that you muzzle her (if you can and it doesn't freak her out). It reduces the chance of anything going wrong while sorting this out, will help keep you a bit more relaxed, which will help Kirra. I suggest this because I have greyhounds and muzzles are a part of our daily life. A plastic American style muzzle might work. Smear the inside and bottom with peanut butter or whatever is extra good and yummy for Kirra and get her used to good things happening when her snout goes in and build up slowly. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to working with a behaviourist, but as a stop gap which might help. I also wonder whether your bf and the man who got nipped had anything in common. Were they wearing hats or caps, beards, riding bikes, very deep voices, same clothes on, listening to the same music? I ask because hearing about people's experiences with galgos who have been mistreated all need to work out what triggers they have. It is often a feature which someone has which is shared by their previous 'owners' but which isn't immediately obvious. So things like the above, or hearing Spanish or particular words can be triggers. This also doesn't mean that the dogs are aggressive - often their fear is directed at men who have been responsible for their problems. That might be the same here. Just some thoughts. yes yes and yes :) def. use a basket muzzle if she's ok with it and it makes you feel more relaxed. YOUR attitude matters here. I have worked with plenty of fear reactive dogs, it really isn't the end of the world! my current project is a dog who had been abused, people made her nervous, men scared the living heck out of her. it took a month before she would even approach my brother(whome I live with) and he never ever did anything to push her, he never looked her way and went out of his way make sure she never felt threatened by him. she now comes up to him, climbs in his lap etc.. but he still has to be careful, he said if he does ANYTHING she might perceive as threatening she goes right back to leaping away and barking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I find fear aggression one of the hardest things to work with in a dog because you need to slowly build the confidence of a dog who already has a preset fallback position of aggression when they feel threatened. Four homes in four months is a lot of movement and changes for a fear aggressive dog to go through which would be extremely stressful for her and may well have added to her insecurities. She may not have ever been abused. I fostered a litter of puppies for the RSPCA some years back and as a single female I was very careful to make sure the pups were given access to men. This was usually to very understanding tradies who were working on my house at the time. The pups were around 4 - 5 weeks old I think when I got them. One puppy was very timid and fearful of any male regardless of whether they were blokey or not. She wasn't great with me either and was always the last puppy to come up and have any interaction. When the litter were old enough for desex and rehoming, they were returned to the shelter. She was adopted outto a lovely family but returned after a couple of weeks as she was very aggressive towards the husband. She had escalated from scared to barking, lunging and biting in that time. She was then put on a behaviour modification program with some very patient and loving male animal attendants spending a lot of time with her. Unfortunately she continued to aggress against men and was pts. Nature v nurture - genetics does play a part in their basic nature. Cali I disagree when you say she is not human aggressive. She is as her aggression when scared is targetted at humans. I agree a behaviourist consult with a good structured rehabilitation program will provide her with the best opportunity to learn to cope. I am not sure "fixed" is the right terminology as it will take an amazing amount of work between a behaviourist and you to get her to be "normal" and having that expectation may set her up for failure as it may well be unachievable. There are some very well regarded behaviourists from Vic on this forum so hopefully they may be able to drop in and introduce themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Brandiandwe, I too was wondering if any of these guys had anything if common as well. My boy was very fearful of men with elastic sided work boots, hats & beards. He bailed up the meter reader, guy from the water board & a man who came to deliver some furniture. All 3 looked almost identical. They also looked identical to the man I got Redman off who thought it was a good way to keep him in line was to kick the S#!T out of him Inka3095....If you can work out what her triggers are you may be able to work her through these fearful issues. Also forgot to mention that if your girl hasn't been socialized. This too can cause huge problems as the dog matures. Redman was never socialized & it caused major issues as they have absolutely no coping skills. They just have a meltdown as the big wide world can completely overwhelm's them. As another doler said, it isn't the end of the world BUT your girl needs to be handled very carefully. You have to be assertive but reassuring. Monitor her reactions to all things. Don't force her into things. That is one thing paramount here. This whole exercise is going to be very time consuming. You may not see results immediately. But with a gentle hand I have been astounded at how most of these dogs can come around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 She needs to be kept away from strangers until you get her properly assessed and a plan put into place. A nervous dog, particularly some breeds like herding breeds, will nip. You are very lucky she was not reported, new dog or not that is no excuse really for her behavior. Don't be permissive, she needs routine, training and structure to help her understand what is acceptable and what is not. There are plenty of people on here who can help you depending what area you are in. I go to Melbourne regularly, then there are others as well if you pop into the training forum who are also in Melb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 its not hard to work with a dog like this, t it can be very hard ,as an owner, to manage a dog like this . been there, done that ..... got the grey hairs to prove it . Fear/nervous aggression is scary and upsetting for dog and humans.... yes, I advise you consult a vet , and a recommended trainer/behaviourist . A little dog such as this is not feeling comfortable a lot of the time , and especially as you rescued her, must make you feel awful Not your fault!! She may well have been born sensitive ...she may ,too, have now started to react to all the changes in her short and worried life. To get a clear view - proper assessment needs to be done ..and experienced, personal opinions/advice given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) There are a lot of people posting who seem keen to make excuses for your dog... scared, has been threatened or abused... Everything you've described could be just as easily explained by territorial aggression - especially as she is aggressing now towards someone she knows. But we haven't seen the dog - it's guesswork at best and it's not helpful to you or her. She is displaying aggressive behaviour towards people. Wondering why she's doing it won't make her bite any less hard. Good on you for asking for help. The next thing you need to ask for is a recommendation to a decent behavioural trainer in your area who can come in and observe the dog and suggest some techniques to manage this behaviour. As for "fixing" it? My guess is even with decent desensitisaiton work, she's never going to like strangers - but that is for an expert to assess. It goes without saying that she should be kept away from strangers in your home. If she is not crate trained, now is the time to start. She can be safely and securely contained whenever there are strangers in the home. No exceptions- you've already been very lucky not to have had her reported. ETA: She can be taken out in a decent muzzle. My guess is that it will help both you and her relax a bit. Edited January 2, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 There's never an excuse for being able to access people and causing harm. If the dog is of an unstable temperament it's up to the owner to restrict or cut off access to people/animals who could be injured. The problem is more the law wont accept the excuses either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I've had more than one dog like this - and their behaviours were due to previous abuse, got 2 of them direct from the owners .. Whilst they were good with me, they did not like strangers so the answer was not to expose them to strangers or other situations that would cause them stress, it wasn't too hard to work it out. One of them didn't like men with big boots on. The dogs were fine with me, I saw that it was my responsibility to manage the dogs and not to put them in situations where they could bite due to anxiety. Crates are fantastic. I used other rooms. I'd recommend getting a behaviouralist in as well, I'm sure it would be very helpful for you - pls don't go for certain franchises, get a recommendation from someone who's had a dog with problems similar to yours if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I am very sorry you have ended up in the position of having a dog like this. It is not your fault that through nature or nurture she has come to this point. It seems to me you have a very stressed dog. Just like us, when a dog is feeling stressed, their judgment is poor, and reactions may be unpredictable. However, dogs generally revert to the most successful behavior, and it seems for whatever reasons, she has learnt that under duress, biting is successful. Both to diffuse the situation, and to relieve pent up stresses. The thing I found alarming in your OP is that the dog was obviously free roaming in the house with the electrical guy that she ultimately bit. The poor dog is not a confident animal, and was basically left feeling like she was in charge of a situation she did not have the skills to manage. I am not a behaviour trainer, nor have I met the dog, but from what I read, this is a dog that needs to have every responsibility removed from her. She needs to be kept out of every situation where she may feel she needs to make decisions. She either has poor nerve or has learnt inappropriate ways to manage her stress, more likely both. You need professional advice for how to help her cope and make decisions in situations. As others have hinted, it is likely the dog cannot be 'fixed' and will need much ongoing work and management. Going forward you need to be honest with yourself as to how much work you are willing to put in, and how much you are expecting from the dog, Good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 ..oh ..and I am not making excuses- rather explaining perhaps why this is happening ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) ..oh ..and I am not making excuses- rather explaining perhaps why this is happening ... Why this is happening will be a combination of genetics, socialisation experiences (or lack of them), current environment and a trigger. Two of these are complete unknowns and the other two we're all left to guess. Time for expert assessment which is one thing we all seem to agree on. :) Edited January 2, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 definitely , H W !!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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