Deciding If Now Is The Right Time To Start In C. C. D.?

[HeroeswitBSD]

I am planning to start in CCD with my Belgian Shepherd - Shiloh - in April, but I'm just not sure how you decide if you are ready for it and how long before the trial do you say Yes I feel confident or No we will just wait?

I feel that the bond I had with Shiloh has diminished over this Christmas period and am hoping that once my christmas roster is over that we can focus and be ready.

My main question is How do you Know you are ready? Do you aim that if you could compete at CD level that you are right for CCD Level or do you use some other marker?

I hope this makes sense. I am just changing for the conformation show side of things to the obedience agility side. :)

Thanks

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

I am planning to start in CCD with my Belgian Shepherd - Shiloh - in April, but I'm just not sure how you decide if you are ready for it and how long before the trial do you say Yes I feel confident or No we will just wait?

I feel that the bond I had with Shiloh has diminished over this Christmas period and am hoping that once my christmas roster is over that we can focus and be ready.

My main question is How do you Know you are ready? Do you aim that if you could compete at CD level that you are right for CCD Level or do you use some other marker?

I hope this makes sense. I am just changing for the conformation show side of things to the obedience agility side. :)

Thanks

One of the judges I train with once told me that given you can lose up to 20% of your score, and still pass, you should aim for pretty close to 100%, under distraction, in training, then you can still afford to lose a few points under the stress of trialling, and pass.

Have you tried Rally O? I'm planning to start trialling my young dog in Rally O, that way I can still praise him, and gee him up in competition, before we have to go all formal in CCD. He'll probably have passes in both Rally Novice and Heelwork to Music, before he starts CCD.

[HeroeswitBSD]

Rally O confuses me completely obedience on the other hand I can understand easily.

At training our head instructor is a judge and he has been saying we are nearly ready but that was before our setbacks so I hope we can get back to that quickly. I have been able to get about 90% under distraction so far so I hope I will be able to get that up to 100% with 100% accuracy by the end of this month or February but if I think she isn't quite ready I think I will hold off til I am 110% sure we are where I want as a team.

As long as I gee her up prior to training I can get lots of focus though right now we are fazing out food and I am changing to tugs to see/ hope I can still get the same if not more focus out of her.

I think Shiloh will enjoy Agility so that will be my aim for the end of this year or next year but we will see

[Nekhbet]

Don't think about it, just do it :laugh: jump into the deep end and you will probably find you do fine.

And trust me, the less you stress the better you will do. THere's nothing lost in jumping in if your dog can do the routine, just get a couple of people to act like a 'judge' and see how you go.

[huski]

Have you been to a trial and watched the CCD runouts? I stewarded at some trials before competing which really helped to show me what I needed to do before I was ready to compete.

Does your club do ring runouts? Have you done a full CCD run through? If not ask them to put you through one so you can see where you are at :)

It also helps to think of your goals. Do you have a picture in your mind of how you want your heel work to look or other teams whose work really inspire you so you have something to aim for? The 'marker' as to when you are ready can look different for everyone depending on what they are aiming for.

When your instructor said you are nearly ready did he say what you need to work on?

Re whether you should train for CCD or CD. The biggest difference between these two classes is that the heel pattern is off leash in CD. I don't use a leash in training so there is no real difference, I once turned up to a judges training night with Daisy. We had never been to a trial before or done a run out under trial conditions. I intended to run her through CCD (mock trial under full trial conditions) but got asked to do CD instead. Daisy did a great job and there was no difference at all for her that the leash was off because that's how I train it.

Edited January 1, 2014 by huski

[HeroeswitBSD]

Have you been to a trial and watched the CCD runouts? I stewarded at some trials before competing which really helped to show me what I needed to do before I was ready to compete.

I have been to a few trials and watched both the CCD & CD runouts, it was very interesting and I learnt so much.

Does your club do ring runouts? Have you done a full CCD run through? If not ask them to put you through one so you can see where you are at :)

My main club does group runouts only ie all instructors working their dogs together. I am going to try to get to my other club which is some distance away(2-3hours) but I feel they are more helpful and they do runouts for those needing them

It also helps to think of your goals. Do you have a picture in your mind of how you want your heel work to look or other teams whose work really inspire you so you have something to aim for? The 'marker' as to when you are ready can look different for everyone depending on what they are aiming for.

My picture of how I want my heeling is like yours with wisdom nice and close and so far with food that is what I have gotten but now I am fazing out food she isn't as interested

When your instructor said you are nearly ready did he say what you need to work on?

the main things my instructor has told me to work on is her breaking on stays ie if on the sit she will drop and on drop she will sit.

Re whether you should train for CCD or CD. The biggest difference between these two classes is that the heel pattern is off leash in CD. I don't use a leash in training so there is no real difference, I once turned up to a judges training night with Daisy. We had never been to a trial before or done a run out under trial conditions. I intended to run her through CCD (mock trial under full trial conditions) but got asked to do CD instead. Daisy did a great job and there was no difference at all for her that the leash was off because that's how I train it.

At home I train her without a lead as I find she is better off lead but under heavy distraction she has been on lead mostly.

It will be interesting to see how we go in a mock trial setup and I think it will give me a good indication as to how far I need to go :)

[huski]

What is the reason for fading out food? I don't fade out rewards I just build the dogs duration :) if she is more driven for food than toys, there is no reason to switch. Lots of competitors train in food drive! :)

[HeroeswitBSD]

What is the reason for fading out food? I don't fade out rewards I just build the dogs duration :) if she is more driven for food than toys, there is no reason to switch. Lots of competitors train in food drive! :)

All the instructors at my club have told me that I need to get rid of food because she is too reliant on it. I think your right I better stay with the food and build the duration and see how we go :)

[The Spotted Devil]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

[HeroeswitBSD]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

I keep the food in a train pouch on my right side. When I am treating her with food she still works well she just doesn't work when I wasn't allowed to give her treats while training but since I can see that not working I will just start making her work more to get her treats and see how we go

[huski]

What is the reason for fading out food? I don't fade out rewards I just build the dogs duration :) if she is more driven for food than toys, there is no reason to switch. Lots of competitors train in food drive! :)

All the instructors at my club have told me that I need to get rid of food because she is too reliant on it. I think your right I better stay with the food and build the duration and see how we go :)

Some instructors feel dogs need to work without food or toy rewards but I think this is a bit old fashioned and if you look at the top competitors world wide they don't work this way. Dogs need to work in the ring without rewards present but they are still in drive and will still be rewarded at the end of the run.

My dogs are all 'reliant' on rewards in some ways that they will never be removed from competition training entirely.

[huski]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

Yes this! Don't let the sight of food or a food pouch become a sign to your dog that you are going to be working or rewarding her. Keeping reward delivery unpredictable is really important.

[HeroeswitBSD]

Thanks Huski, my main club is definitely old fashioned in training and beliefs which is why I have been trying to get to my other club as they are more up to date. the only problem there is I have a long distance to travel and the times the sessions are on I have to work :) might do some shift changes :)

[The Spotted Devil]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

I keep the food in a train pouch on my right side. When I am treating her with food she still works well she just doesn't work when I wasn't allowed to give her treats while training but since I can see that not working I will just start making her work more to get her treats and see how we go

Ah ha! I hide the treats in small sealed containers behind trees etc - ask for a very short heel pattern (even 5 steps to begin with), mark the correct behaviour and race them to the secret stash - make it so they never know where or when the next treat is coming from. Keep it fun and light - obedience trialling should be about how much fun you are to be with in your dog's eyes.

[HeroeswitBSD]

Thanks Spotted Dog I will have to try that :) sounds like fun

[Tassie]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

I keep the food in a train pouch on my right side. When I am treating her with food she still works well she just doesn't work when I wasn't allowed to give her treats while training but since I can see that not working I will just start making her work more to get her treats and see how we go

Ah ha! I hide the treats in small sealed containers behind trees etc - ask for a very short heel pattern (even 5 steps to begin with), mark the correct behaviour and race them to the secret stash - make it so they never know where or when the next treat is coming from. Keep it fun and light - obedience trialling should be about how much fun you are to be with in your dog's eyes.

And in building up duration, small and then varying increments. And don't forget to take your training on the road - not full run outs - just bits and pieces, with and without food and toys. And try to build in play/tricks/physical rewards, that you can take into the ring with you - e.g. hand targets, leg weaves... these can all be used between exercises and help to keep the dog and you up and engaged. Not so necessary in CCD, but great to have in your tool box especially for higher classes.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

For stays - I do a lot of faking my dog out. If she fails, I go back and laugh at her, put her back in position and start over. If she gets it right I go back, if I'm training for obedience - into the position - imagine and exercise complete then race to the hidden treat stash.

I sometimes train with treats around the field - in open top cups, but depending on how good the treat is - I sometimes need help (or a lid) to prevent theft. She's most embarrassed if interrupted stealing so I think that helps her figure out she needs permission and be less likely to do it again. However if she manages to scoff the treat before I interrupt and take it off her - then she wins and she's more likely to try stealing again. Hence the lids and friends for treat guards.

I do a lot of "its yer choice" training with treats everywhere - so she gets the idea she can only have them with permission. And I try this in as many different places as possible. Ie can you do heel work past a bowl of freshly chopped roast chicken? Success - we get to have some chicken - fail - we get to try again - a bit further away from it. You might need a lid for the chicken when starting out. Those clip top lids are good.

[megan_]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

Yes this! Don't let the sight of food or a food pouch become a sign to your dog that you are going to be working or rewarding her. Keeping reward delivery unpredictable is really important.

I went to a uta bindel seminar and she had the food in her mouth so the dog had no idea it was there. She was using steak though and not schmakos!

In terms of when you're ready, I think it depends on your goals . All the top competitors I have spoken to train their dogs to the highest level and only then start competing in novice . They then get titles over very few trials . They areng trialling week in and out chasing titles.

[HeroeswitBSD]

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

I keep the food in a train pouch on my right side. When I am treating her with food she still works well she just doesn't work when I wasn't allowed to give her treats while training but since I can see that not working I will just start making her work more to get her treats and see how we go

Ah ha! I hide the treats in small sealed containers behind trees etc - ask for a very short heel pattern (even 5 steps to begin with), mark the correct behaviour and race them to the secret stash - make it so they never know where or when the next treat is coming from. Keep it fun and light - obedience trialling should be about how much fun you are to be with in your dog's eyes.

And in building up duration, small and then varying increments. And don't forget to take your training on the road - not full run outs - just bits and pieces, with and without food and toys. And try to build in play/tricks/physical rewards, that you can take into the ring with you - e.g. hand targets, leg weaves... these can all be used between exercises and help to keep the dog and you up and engaged. Not so necessary in CCD, but great to have in your tool box especially for higher classes.

Thanks will give all that a try :)

For stays - I do a lot of faking my dog out. If she fails, I go back and laugh at her, put her back in position and start over. If she gets it right I go back, if I'm training for obedience - into the position - imagine and exercise complete then race to the hidden treat stash.

I sometimes train with treats around the field - in open top cups, but depending on how good the treat is - I sometimes need help (or a lid) to prevent theft. She's most embarrassed if interrupted stealing so I think that helps her figure out she needs permission and be less likely to do it again. However if she manages to scoff the treat before I interrupt and take it off her - then she wins and she's more likely to try stealing again. Hence the lids and friends for treat guards.

I do a lot of "its yer choice" training with treats everywhere - so she gets the idea she can only have them with permission. And I try this in as many different places as possible. Ie can you do heel work past a bowl of freshly chopped roast chicken? Success - we get to have some chicken - fail - we get to try again - a bit further away from it. You might need a lid for the chicken when starting out. Those clip top lids are good.

I might sound dumb & or I'm not thinking but what do you mean by "Faking my dog out"?

Also, where is the food? If it's on you or delivery is predictable your dog will understandably switch off if you don't carry food or you suddenly start to reward differently.

Yes this! Don't let the sight of food or a food pouch become a sign to your dog that you are going to be working or rewarding her. Keeping reward delivery unpredictable is really important.

I went to a uta bindel seminar and she had the food in her mouth so the dog had no idea it was there. She was using steak though and not schmakos!

In terms of when you're ready, I think it depends on your goals . All the top competitors I have spoken to train their dogs to the highest level and only then start competing in novice . They then get titles over very few trials . They areng trialling week in and out chasing titles.

for now trialing is just to spend time with my dogs, if we don't win/ qual thats fine. I am going to see how we go in the next few months and make my decision then :)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Faking your dog out... also known as proofing... or distraction proofing - so you are the distraction...

so if your recall word (off a stay) is "come" try "turkey" in the same tone... or some other word that doesn't mean anything...

Or put your dog in a stay and run by your dog but don't give any signal to come with you...

run by your dog singing "turkey rhubarb custard" etc.

Chuck things around your dog - toys, pillows, balls...

The stay I'm looking for is mostly an agility stay... so I make like I'm about to run off - and bounce on the spot. I do run off. I don't give the "release word"... I'm faking her out with all sorts of body language that usually means chase me - but not if she's in a stay...

Get some friends to help with the faking out...

At a competition - in CCD - you can expect another dog to get up and run away... see if you can get someone else with a dog to run past all excited like - start far away and gradually bring the other dog closer. Play with the other dog in front of your dog - other people will do this to warm their dogs up - right next to the ring where you're doing a stay.

Feed a magpie in front of your dog - magpies routinely invade our courses looking for stray bits of dog treats and office workers lunches. We can hand feed them if we want.

At CCD in the stays - you can also expect another dog to get up, walk over to your dog, sniff, and then sit on top of your dog. Or play bow...

So you can see if any of these things will get your dog up... proofing... if they do, put your dog back gently and start over. Start with easy things and build up. Take your dog to some competitions and practice stays (on lead) but outside of rings, but in all the chaos - well start far away and work closer as your dog gets accustomed to the job at hand.

I also wrote "imagine and" when I meant "imagine an 'exercise completed' (from the judge)".

I have also considered making a recording of the directions you see being given on youtube video of people's ccd trials... and then using head phones or even a phone speaker to play back the instructions and then try to do them as I hear them. Eg start in the middle of a cricket oval or something.

This is a nice example... not perfect but most people don't expect perfect at CCD.