Puppy Buyers

[raz]

I am left wondering how anyone could afford to breed dogs if they didn't work full time???

Some breeders don't work at all, but just breed dogs. They earn a living from the puppies they sell

Oh dear, that's not going to go down well.

yeah, pretty much like this

[espinay2]

My puppy buyers are screened VERY carefully. But I don't discriminate based on whether they work or not. I have owners that work and owners that are home. Some are only dogs and some are not.. And all puppies are given the attention and training they need to make them well rounded and happy pets. I spent several years grooming and going into people's homes. It was made very clear to me in that time that whether someone worked or not was not a good indicator of the care and attention a dog would receive. Certainly every Home situation has its challenges and yes there have been times (often) when I would rather be home with my dogs than going to work. But more important than whether someone works or not is the priority they give their dogs welfare. What steps do they take to be sure their dogs have a good life. Taking their dog to work with them, taking time off work when their dog needs them, making sure the dog is a big part of their life and not simply left in the backyard. Being sure to cater to their need for a stable routine, a good leader, a safe environment that is good to live in, adequate rest and adequate mental stimulation and inclusion in the family pack. These types of things can not be determined by profiling a person based on whether they work or not.

[Rosetta]

To Dear Jed,

Thank you so much for this thread. I have had a really good laugh at all the indignant members' replies to your initial post.

It is a real shame that they are not up-to-date with all the latest or proposed legislation or what most rescues and pounds now expect !

Keep well !

I am interested in this comment. I get where some rescues may require potential adopters to be at home but what proposed legislation are you referring to and what do pounds expect?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Oh wow. What a thread!

I work full time. I have always worked full time. I am so glad the breeder who sold me my first dog was fine with me working full time. I am pretty sure Halley (my first dog as a full time working single adult) turned out pretty well lol! (on my website under 'in memory' for anyone wanting to see how screwed up the poor girl was ....)

When it comes to raising puppies, an interesting point that was emphasized to me recently reading the book 'keys to top breeding' was that many stressed how important proper rest was for a pups growth and the observation that this was often lacking in pet homes where they were with owners all day where a pup was often over stimulated by too much activity.

Dogs are crepuscular. Which means they are naturally most active at dawn and dusk. Even when I am home, for example, my dogs will sleep for much of the day.

When it comes to socialization, more does not automatically mean better. Indeed many behaviour issues IMO may relate to too much of the wrong type of socialization at the wrong time. A pup is not necessarily better off being bombarded by experiences all day every day as opposed to controlled and carefully targetted experiences in the morning and afternoon/ evening and on weekends.

Many problems with separation anxiety often stem from a pup not being taught to be on its own from the beginning. Even staying home with a pup for several weeks and then going back to work can cause issues as the routine change is so great. Even when staying home for a pup it is important to acclimatize it to being left alone. Many of the dogs I know with the severest separation anxiety are owned by people who do not go out to work as the dog is not taught to cope in the absence of its owner.

Most of the breeders and dog owners I know work full time. They have well rounded and well socialized dogs of many different breeds. The dogs do plenty of activities with them and with their family. They are part of the family. They certainly have not 'suffered' in any way that I can see from the fact that their owners are not with them 24/7.

This is a very clear explanation of the reasons why a thoughtful full time worker can plan around their dogs' circadian rhythms to achieve good outcomes.

I also agree with Trisven that it's about the right dog for the right person and that comprises a range of considerations including the dog's temperament.

[cowanbree]

I find it quite amusing, Jed has said numerous times that she is not talking about all people who work full time but rather people who want to leave a puppy home alone all day every day as babies without making any arrangements for them. I think there are a lot of breeders out there that aren't posting as most of my breeder friends feel the same way.

I think as breeders we all have our criteria's, I also don't consider any home that has them sleep outside or young couples that are yet to have children or have children under 5yrs. Why because in my experience that doesn't work for my breed. It certainly does upset some of my potential owners and I may miss out on some wonderful homes but homing my breed is not generally a problem and I am prepared to wait for what I deem the right home.

Edited December 31, 2013 by cowanbree

[Christina]

Its all quite interesting really :) But its getting nasty.

My rather ironic thought was about the working versus stay at home mums debate.

Many do actually choose not to stay at home with very young babies, as opposed to those struggling who have to work, so many wouldn't want to stay home for a puppy would they ?

Not exactly the same as obviously babies can't be left home alone but some of the consequences & results are being compared. As in childcare versus home & socialising etc.

That discussion always causes riots.

Having always had a large family, someone at home at most hours, only ever worked full time at night my dogs were hardly ever alone but its different now. I wouldn't have a dog if I worked full time long hours & wouldn't breed as I would be too scared of anything going wrong if I wasn't there but many do.

Guess a sensible compromise & consideration of personal lifestyle of potential puppy home is the way to go. Must say though not in my particular breed so much but with larger dogs many are re homed, returned or taken to pounds because people do say they haven't got enough time for them & didn't realise this when they got them. It is a reason often given.

[Zug Zug]

It can be difficult to make enough time for a larger dog. I've been working full time for years now, and I've found it difficult at times.

But funny thing - I've been home for almost 2 months now due to surgery and guess what - as I've recovered and my health has improved I've founds lots of things to do and guess what - it's still hard to make time to give my dog the exercise he needs. Still something I need to concentrate on.

So it's really about commitment I think. If you are committed to your dog, even though some of the daily requirements can be taxing at times, you'll make the effort whether you're working or not.

And if you're not committed, no matter how many hours you have free in your day, the dog will drift down your priority list and its needs will not be met.

The first post was a shameful over-simplification.

[Bullbreedlover]

And the thing being is that I can see from all the last posts that people do have opinions and thanks for sharing them. Raz's explosion was kind of maybe a bit much :) Yes it does come down to personal preferences and I prefer(based on the time I have had in my breed) that a puppy of mine goes to a home where there is someone home that can give them the time they need. Every enquiry I get they get asked this question. I like to think my dogs are part of a family structure not an ornament in the back yard.

I also think that many other breeds need the same structured home as well although others may not require it.

[raz]

It was, wasnt it. A bit like this thread.

Bullbreedlover, I would buy a puppy from you because you seem like a caring breeder. Would you sell to me because I work?

[Roova]

Just out of curiosity, and not being said in an antagonistic way, but when you say 'can give them the time they need', what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean there for companionship so they simply aren't alone, or do you mean constant interaction and doing things with the dog all day?

If someone was home all day what would you want to see happening to make you happy as a breeder?

Maybe there's confusion over the statement full time workers shouldn't have a puppy because its not clear what interaction is expected?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Roova

[minimax]

Maybe Jed should have posted this rant at the people it was aimed at, not on a dog forum full of educated dog people?

[Bullbreedlover]

It was, wasnt it. A bit like this thread.

Bullbreedlover, I would buy a puppy from you because you seem like a caring breeder. Would you sell to me because I work?

Maybe, maybe not, it will depend.

Do you work full time, and how many hours in an average day would you be home? Is there anyone else capable at home that could also care for a baby Bulldog and very importantly would your whole lifestyle be suitable for one of my babies?

:)

[Bullbreedlover]

Maybe Jed should have posted this rant at the people it was aimed at, not on a dog forum full of educated dog people?

Have you got any statistical information to back up your statement that this forum is full of educated dog people? Many people on here own dogs, it doesn't make them all educated and responsible?

[raz]

Lol. You and I have argued a lot on the forum but I think I love you now. You come across as an awesome breeder. Happy New Year Bbl

[Bullbreedlover]

What a load of cow dung. I work 24/7. My poor dogs. So glad I bought from breeders who didnt have a rod up their bum.

Lol. You and I have argued a lot on the forum but I think I love you now. You come across as an awesome breeder. Happy New Year Bbl

So I don't have a rod up my bum then?

Cool.

I was worried. :D

Happy New Year!

[raz]

Lol. Have a great day bbl. Post some baby bbd pics. Cutest puppies.

[Wundahoo]

Happy New Year everyone !!

I am going to start 2014 off by putting myself in the firing line.... up front, facing the firing squad !!

Firstly, before people get really cranky about what I will say, I am not referring to each and every home-alone dog or full-time working owners. I know that there are many whose situation does work for them and their dogs but there are just as many situations where it just doest work out and the results can be tragic.

I am Secretary of the Breed Club in my state and I also run our breed rescue and placement service. I can say that most requests to put a dog on rescue or placement come from people who are full time workers. They usually tell me that they love their dog but they just cant live with it and so it needs to be found a new home. Classically, these dogs have been sold at 8 weeks of age to families where there is no one at home for long periods each day, 5 days a week. The house is usually empty of people from around 7.30am to about 5.00pm. Before people leave the house they are often busy getting the day off to a start and when they arrive home, they are often busy with household things such as preparing meals, doing chores or in the case of the kids, doing homework. There is usually very little time each day that can be devoted to giving the puppy the sort of interaction and training that it needs. This doesnt just mean a cuddle or a game or a walk.

My breed needs close supervision while growing up. They need guidance as to the acceptability (or otherwise) of the activities that they choose during the day. They need reinforcement of positive behaviours and distraction away from those that are unwanted. They also have a high psychological need to be close to people and this, at times, can become overwhelming so that when a person does finally appear at the end of the day the puppy/dog is so overcome with excitement and joy to see another living creature that all possibility of quality learning flies out the window. Instead, the dog's hyper reaction to seeing someone becomes the reinforced pattern of behaviour and this can be set for life. It might be cute when a little puppy turns itself inside out with joy at the arrival of its person each afternoon but it is very wearing when the dog is a lot bigger and there is more force behind the jumping, leaping, twirling and barking !!

My breed learns fast and also learns by perceived reward. This means that a lonely pup which finds something to do that relieves the hours of boredom or that runs off some of the pent up energy or simply offers some tactile stimulation, will return again and again to that activity. If no one is there to direct the pup and tell it that the behaviour is not really acceptable, that behaviour quickly becomes reinforced and very hard to change. Because the puppy is often obtained at an age and stage of development where toiletting and house training habits are at a crucial point and where patterns can be set for life (eg surface preference) home-alone puppies of this breed can be difficult to house train. For this reason they often find themselves excluded from the house which in turn leads to separation issues when the family is at home and inside..... where the dog also believes it should be !!.

By the time these home-alone dogs reach 6-9 months of age the owners are often not feeling the love when they get home from work. Their yard may be looking the worse for wear, holes dug, retic chewed, plants pruned and often neighbours not pleased about the barking and door banging.

This scenario is NOT a rare one for my breed. I have never had a request for a dog to go onto rescue or placement where there is a member of the family at home for 4 or 5 out of 7 days except where the owners have become ill or are moving.

As a breeder I WILL NOT sell my puppies to a home-alone situation because I know that it has a very high chance of not working. I dont say that it wont work, but I know my breed and its requirements and therefore I know that the odds are against the puppy growing to be a well-trained and well behaved adult if placed in a home-alone situation while at critical stages of development. I choose homes where there is at least one part-time worker or a family member who is home for a reasonable part of the week. Any more than 2 consecutive days alone and the prospective buyer is politely told that one of my puppies will not be available to them.

This is MY choice and MY right. Needless to say I get people who are cranky that I wont sell them a puppy because they work full-time. I have been abused and called names ...... can see that about to happen here too !!!

I have had people tell me that they will "make it work"...... when I ask how they plan to do that, they tell me that they will find a way !! To me this seems like a huge gamble because IF it doesnt work out and the dog needs to be rehomed it's the dog that suffers.

I have a very strict criteria for selecting the homes for my puppies and I have very little trouble in finding the type of home that I want for them. I may pass up some truly wonderful homes because the puppy will be in a home-alone situation, but that is my choice. I'm sure that there will another breeder somewhere in Australia or a pet shop that will happily sell them a puppy.

[Steph M]

I think someone, possibly hankodie also made the point that perhaps the odds swaying this way might have a bit to do with the number of people that do work full time. I'd love to see some numbers of dogs housed to full-time workers vs those who stay at home and work out how this actually corresponds and why the dogs were dumped. I know several home situations that are less than perfect but I really do take some offence to being told I'm not a suitable candidate because we work full time (ev

en though there's more to our situation than that) and thatmmy dogs must be miserable.

I'm also quite curious as to why we wouldn't be suited as we are a couple without kids. We don't plan on having any. I make sure my dogs interact appropriately with kids and we have friends who have kids and they're exposed to them often.

If heaven forbid the fertility fairy knocks me on the head we end up with a baby on the way I can tell you now we wouldn't wind up with backyard ornaments. Our dogs are our first kids. We dote on them, they are loved and are family.

I think any situation is workable if you make the effort.

My heart just breaks at the thought of people being turned away for such reasons and (especially bulldogs! A byb bulldog is a sad sad thing health wise quite often) finding what they need in pets paradise or Gumtree.

I understand its absolutely your own prerogative but I'd love for you to come meet my dogs and tell me they're unhappy and are missing out.

The american bulldog next door has people home all day and still wanders the streets and eats chum.

There has to be more to a decision than your work life.

[trinabean]

Happy New Year everyone !!

I am going to start 2014 off by putting myself in the firing line.... up front, facing the firing squad !!

Firstly, before people get really cranky about what I will say, I am not referring to each and every home-alone dog or full-time working owners. I know that there are many whose situation does work for them and their dogs but there are just as many situations where it just doest work out and the results can be tragic.

I am Secretary of the Breed Club in my state and I also run our breed rescue and placement service. I can say that most requests to put a dog on rescue or placement come from people who are full time workers. They usually tell me that they love their dog but they just cant live with it and so it needs to be found a new home. Classically, these dogs have been sold at 8 weeks of age to families where there is no one at home for long periods each day, 5 days a week. The house is usually empty of people from around 7.30am to about 5.00pm. Before people leave the house they are often busy getting the day off to a start and when they arrive home, they are often busy with household things such as preparing meals, doing chores or in the case of the kids, doing homework. There is usually very little time each day that can be devoted to giving the puppy the sort of interaction and training that it needs. This doesnt just mean a cuddle or a game or a walk.

My breed needs close supervision while growing up. They need guidance as to the acceptability (or otherwise) of the activities that they choose during the day. They need reinforcement of positive behaviours and distraction away from those that are unwanted. They also have a high psychological need to be close to people and this, at times, can become overwhelming so that when a person does finally appear at the end of the day the puppy/dog is so overcome with excitement and joy to see another living creature that all possibility of quality learning flies out the window. Instead, the dog's hyper reaction to seeing someone becomes the reinforced pattern of behaviour and this can be set for life. It might be cute when a little puppy turns itself inside out with joy at the arrival of its person each afternoon but it is very wearing when the dog is a lot bigger and there is more force behind the jumping, leaping, twirling and barking !!

My breed learns fast and also learns by perceived reward. This means that a lonely pup which finds something to do that relieves the hours of boredom or that runs off some of the pent up energy or simply offers some tactile stimulation, will return again and again to that activity. If no one is there to direct the pup and tell it that the behaviour is not really acceptable, that behaviour quickly becomes reinforced and very hard to change. Because the puppy is often obtained at an age and stage of development where toiletting and house training habits are at a crucial point and where patterns can be set for life (eg surface preference) home-alone puppies of this breed can be difficult to house train. For this reason they often find themselves excluded from the house which in turn leads to separation issues when the family is at home and inside..... where the dog also believes it should be !!.

By the time these home-alone dogs reach 6-9 months of age the owners are often not feeling the love when they get home from work. Their yard may be looking the worse for wear, holes dug, retic chewed, plants pruned and often neighbours not pleased about the barking and door banging.

This scenario is NOT a rare one for my breed. I have never had a request for a dog to go onto rescue or placement where there is a member of the family at home for 4 or 5 out of 7 days except where the owners have become ill or are moving.

As a breeder I WILL NOT sell my puppies to a home-alone situation because I know that it has a very high chance of not working. I dont say that it wont work, but I know my breed and its requirements and therefore I know that the odds are against the puppy growing to be a well-trained and well behaved adult if placed in a home-alone situation while at critical stages of development. I choose homes where there is at least one part-time worker or a family member who is home for a reasonable part of the week. Any more than 2 consecutive days alone and the prospective buyer is politely told that one of my puppies will not be available to them.

This is MY choice and MY right. Needless to say I get people who are cranky that I wont sell them a puppy because they work full-time. I have been abused and called names ...... can see that about to happen here too !!!

I have had people tell me that they will "make it work"...... when I ask how they plan to do that, they tell me that they will find a way !! To me this seems like a huge gamble because IF it doesnt work out and the dog needs to be rehomed it's the dog that suffers.

I have a very strict criteria for selecting the homes for my puppies and I have very little trouble in finding the type of home that I want for them. I may pass up some truly wonderful homes because the puppy will be in a home-alone situation, but that is my choice. I'm sure that there will another breeder somewhere in Australia or a pet shop that will happily sell them a puppy.

A good post Wundahoo. At the end of the day, as a responsible breeder, you would take back a puppy if 'things didn't work out' and I think you are wise to mitigate that risk by selecting the most suitable home for your breed. So often on DOL people lament about the breeders who won't take one of their own dogs back. We can't have it both ways. Many good breeders are very selective about the homes their pups go to. They know what works/ doesn't work for single puppies of their breed.

Obviously circumstances differ from household to household. And the average DOLer is not necessarily the same as the average member-of-the-public puppy buyer. Many DOLers put things in place to occupy their dog (dog walkers etc) while they are at work.

Edited January 1, 2014 by trinabean

[aussielover]

If Jed and others dogs can't handle being alone for a good part of the day, even if they receive lots of interaction before and after work and on the weekends then I actually think it's good they are upfront with their puppy buyers. That way, there is no disappointment.

As others have said there are many dogs who can and do cope with this situation. If this is your situation, there are plenty of responsible breeders willing to consider your situation so go to one of them.

Personally I think dogs are very adaptable and can thrive on a lot situations. I think a dog is better off in a home where the owner works full time but spends time exercising and training them out of work hours and allows them inside at night, compared to an outside dog with someone home all day but hardly receives any attention.

I also work full time but my dogs go to doggy daycare or come to work with me. They are given the opportunity to do the work they are bred for and do agility. I think they have a good life but as always, I'm sure there are dogs out there who are better off and get more attention.

With the increasing popularity of doggy daycare and dog walkers I would have thought working full time would be less of an issue.