Canine Arthritis And Fish Oil Dosages

[dartuche]

Hi all,

First time posting after lurking for awhile, and I have query about fish oil dosages and glucosamine. I've been doing a lot of reading today, through some of the old DOL posts and some stuff from google. I was just wondering how other people go with their dosages and what brands etc they find are good.

I have a 9 1/2 year old rotte X GSD who is about 43 kg that I got as a rescue dog at aprox 2 years (no one was sure of his age.) Over the last two years he got arhtiritis in his hips (has always been a bit funny about them anyway) and in the last two months has been limping more and more because of his left elbow. He is currently on his second round of cartophen and just getting his first set of boosters for it (Decided to go for cartophen again when the hips played up once more.) He gets 4 cups a day of blackhawk chicken and rice biscuits as well, softened with a bit of beef stock, and I've started giving him some carrots and liver every so often (once a week as finances permit) as well. I've heard recommendations of greek yoghurt and spinach to liven it up-- he has been losing his appetite and I have to WATCH him eat or he lets my other vacuum-on-legs (rottiexstaffy) eat his food.

The vet just told me to give him fish oil, and to give him 2 tablets per 10 kg. So he was getting 4 1000mg tablets for brekkie and 4 more for dinner.

After doing some reading I reckon I've over dosed the poor thing and I need to get some vitamin e into him as well.

A lot of my reading has suggested double dosing at first to see the effectiveness, but I'm worried I will upset his health even more. In the last two months his stools have gotten softer, he is going noticeably gray and now after a good swim/walk at the beach he spends the next 2 days limping because of his elbow, and limps intermittently throughout the day when he has been lying down lots. His appatite will drop low for 2-3 days then he will scarf everything for 2 days, then it will drop off and he won't be very hungry for another 2 days. If I stop the fish oil for a few days his stools firm up, his appetite improves but he limps LOTS more.

What I'm considering is one tablet a day of both "Blackmores Natural Vitamin E 500IU Capsules" and "Nature's Way Glucosamine 500mg & Fish Oil 500mg" as his normal dose.

Has anyone used similiar brands/combinations and had any luck, and what was your tablet > weight ratio? How well did your dog respond to it?

Any help or advice is muchly appreciated =)

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I use fish oil with my dogs but no idea about dosage rates. I generally just buy whatever brand I can get that is reasonably priced and have been giving the dogs 1 capsule each (they range in weight from 10kg-24kg) just once a day. However, none of them have joint issues, it's more of a preventative. Something else I have been told that is good for joint health is feeding tinned fish like sardines and mackeral (the ones in tomato sauce or water not vegetable oil as that is the oil you don't want but you do want the fishy oils). Have you looked in to seeing a chiro? They may be able to give you some exercises to help your dog. The other thing is, if your dog is coming back from exercise limping (especially for more than just a few hours) you probably need to pull back on the activities that cause that to happen.

[dartuche]

Thanks for the suggestions Pretty Miss Emma, much food for thought there =)

Yeah I figured it was the beach stressing his joints out so have cut that for the moment (which sucks given our scorching 30+ days at the moment)I was doing the same thing, buying whatever brand is on special, but I got a bit spooked by people reporting the issues with too much fish oil and realised that was what I was doing to Zephyr.

The tinned fish thing sounds good, how often do your dogs get them-- just mixed in with normal food, or as treats? Zephyr is a bit of a pain he does NOT like tablets at all so I have to hide them in his food. Did you have any problems getting them to eat it?

I'll look into doggy chiro if I can find one (will have to google it) but that is more of in a month or two thing once the wallet stops crying in a corner.

Edited December 29, 2013 by dartuche

[cavNrott]

I give my 10.5kg Cavalier 1 wild salmon oil capsule a day. He gets a vitamin E capsule every second day.

All my dogs are given glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM from pups and for life as a preventative. It seems to work quite well.

dartuche it might be time to consider giving your boy pain relief meds on a daily basis. Arthritis is very painful and his limping is telling you he is in pain. I hold the belief that there is no need for a dog to suffer pain when pain relief is available.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I don't think you have to stop beach visits all together, just manage them! My old girl used to get a bit stiff when I took her to the beach as she aged so we just had to go for shorter periods and I had to really watch what I did with her, it had to be an "easier" trip.

I put the fish oil capsules in with dinner and also mixed the sardines in with dinner. My chiro (who is also a naturopath and a vet) said they could have them every day, but again this is more as a preventative not to deal with actual joint issues. My dogs often get 1 or 2 sardines with their dinner, but with your dogs size you could probably give a tin each day if you wanted (they're about 60c a tin I think, I just buy homebrand ones!).

[Tara and Sam]

I would check or recheck with vet

my boy who was 40 kilo had to have them for his HD and Arthritis and in later years for his disc in his back

the vet suggested 4 x 1000mg per day

we did swap from the injections to the Cartophen ? or similar name tablets that helped with his pain

It was suggested by my vet to give 2 x 1000mg a day for my CKCS who is 8 kilo , But that was to build her immune system up because she has cancer , and that amount did give her sloopy poos , but I got around that with Dry food for sensative tummy

I also give Salmon for breakfast

if they wont swallow the capsules , peirce the capsule and mix with food

[harley]

My two (25 and 33kgms) get two fish oil capsules a day each, they are 1000mg tablets. They both have arthritis and are also on Zydax injections (similar to cartrophen). I also give them some joint guard powder each day. If I give sardines I just don't give the fish oil on that day.

[Yonjuro]

As has been said above, please make sure you give a small amount of natural vitamin E when dosing Fish Oil every other day, especially with some of the quantities people are using. I have read some horror stories of rapid deterioration of dogs fed high doses - one particular 80kg dog was on 8 x 1000 per day as recommended by a number of vets. THe dog nearly died from symptoms which mirrored what the dog was actually being treated for - arthritis and stiffness etc. But turned out to be getting much worse and was eventually discovered that this directly caused by Vitamin E deficiency caused by the Fish Oil. Fortunately the owner researched this more than the vets did and gave small doses on Vit E and the dog recovered rapidly and is now better than ever by using the combination of Fish Oil and E.

BTW, freezing fish will destroy the Vit E in fish so best to exercise moderation.

I have not been through extensive research or articles on these Omegas and Vit E, but I believe that you still need to be careful with Flax seed oil and other sources when used in medicinal doses as they will deplete Vit E in dogs. Some will have Vit E added but if not, then the same principle applies.

I fed fish oil for years to my ageing Schnauzer, 1 x 1000mg per day as recommended by the Vet. I wish I knew what I do now as I might have been able to help her better with her stiffness and other age related conditions during her final years

[perfect partners]

There is a new injection for arthritis - cartrophen and glucosamine - it's called Synovan. Just slightly more expensive, but it's more effective. I used to give Swisse salmon oil capsules - 4 per day to a 43 kg dog, but I now use Natural Animal Solutions oil blend, which also contains vitamin E. She also gets the N.A.S. Joint Support. I sometimes give a couple of salmon oil tablets with breakfast, as well. I also feed sardines and mackerel once or twice a week. And calcium ascorbate/ester C daily. Here is an article about its effectiveness in dogs with HD and associated arthritis - http://workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm#chitika_close_button. A rescue Newfoundland who had to be helped to get up has made amazing progress since being given Rosehip Vital Canine. He now gets up without help and is running around.

[dartuche]

Woah thank you so much for all the suggestions everyone this has been heaps of help-- haha I didn't expect more replies until tomorrow morning!

It's always hard to tell when Zephyr is in pain =( He's so stoic the most he'll do is be reluctant to get up and give me the sad puppy face; I've only ever heard him make a small yelp or whine when he was in extreme pain (after surgery for a fat lump) At the beach he mostly walks on the firm sand or elbows deep in water, but getting him to swim is a struggle because he just likes paddling. Like Pretty Miss Emma suggested I'm going to have to try shorter, gentler beach walks with him instead, since the big boof head still loves it and will pretend to be fine the minute he hears the car harness jingling.

He's going to the vet tomorrow for another cartophen booster shot so pain meds will definetly need to be discussed. The problem is that every time I go to the vet i'm seeing a different vetinarian on duty which makes it hard to discuss things regarding zephyr that have been ongoing.

Perfect Partners, would you be able to recommend where you buy the Natural Animal Solutions oil blend? I'm in WA and the only website I can find it on is here but it won't let me see what ingredients are in the supplements, and City Farmers don't seem to stock that brand. The all in one tablet would be much better for him as well.

Harley how have your two beeing going with the joint guard powder? Did it take a while to build up and show results?

From what everyone has said I'm going to go buy him the fish oil+glucoasmine tablets, and the vitamin e, and give him four of each per day. That plus sardines every second or third day sounds like my best bet to start with. If that doesn't show more results I'll give the joint gaurd a go-- I want Zephyr to be comfortable and out of pain but like I'm sure everyone knows, dogs come hand in hand with lots of budget juggling antics.

[Yonjuro]

... you say 4 of each?? Don't give 4 x Vitamin E per day. First check out if any Vit E is added in the supplements before adding. You only need a small amount of E every other day. Don't use synthetic vitamin E, you can get 'natural' in capsules.

Please do some research on this as well, there is a heap of material discussing fish oil and vitamin E on the net, and discuss with your vet.

[harley]

Mine have been on the joint guard for a few years now. I saw an improvement with the powder and the fish oil, but I also changed their diet to one I think is healthier too. They recommend a higher dose when you start and then a lower maintenance dose. I just mix it in with their food.

They have also been having firstly cartrophen and now the Zydax for a couple of years after I noticed some stiffness in my old boy (12 year old lab). My greyhound has an old racing injury and she is definitely more comfortable with the injections too.

[perfect partners]

Woah thank you so much for all the suggestions everyone this has been heaps of help-- haha I didn't expect more replies until tomorrow morning!

It's always hard to tell when Zephyr is in pain =( He's so stoic the most he'll do is be reluctant to get up and give me the sad puppy face; I've only ever heard him make a small yelp or whine when he was in extreme pain (after surgery for a fat lump) At the beach he mostly walks on the firm sand or elbows deep in water, but getting him to swim is a struggle because he just likes paddling. Like Pretty Miss Emma suggested I'm going to have to try shorter, gentler beach walks with him instead, since the big boof head still loves it and will pretend to be fine the minute he hears the car harness jingling.

He's going to the vet tomorrow for another cartophen booster shot so pain meds will definetly need to be discussed. The problem is that every time I go to the vet i'm seeing a different vetinarian on duty which makes it hard to discuss things regarding zephyr that have been ongoing.

Perfect Partners, would you be able to recommend where you buy the Natural Animal Solutions oil blend? I'm in WA and the only website I can find it on is here but it won't let me see what ingredients are in the supplements, and City Farmers don't seem to stock that brand. The all in one tablet would be much better for him as well.

Harley how have your two beeing going with the joint guard powder? Did it take a while to build up and show results?

From what everyone has said I'm going to go buy him the fish oil+glucoasmine tablets, and the vitamin e, and give him four of each per day. That plus sardines every second or third day sounds like my best bet to start with. If that doesn't show more results I'll give the joint gaurd a go-- I want Zephyr to be comfortable and out of pain but like I'm sure everyone knows, dogs come hand in hand with lots of budget juggling antics.

Here is the info on the oil blend - http://www.naturalanimalsolutions.com.au/omega36&9-oil-for-dogs-horses.html I changed to using this because it is balanced for 3, 6 and 9 and also includes natural vitamin E so I don't have to work out correct dosage. You could email Jacqueline and ask where you can buy it in WA. She's very helpful. When you go for the cartrophen injection, ask your vet about Synovan - I found results showed within a day or two of the injection.

[karly101]

I prefer the commercial supplements available as they are already dosed out appropriately. Cost wise when I was in vet clinic where a lot of clients were struggling finacially we actually found the hills j/d or eukunuba mobility to be good as it already has the supplements included in the feed and for big dogs tended to worked out cheaper than purchasing separately (this may have changed so just do a price check with amount to feed and see). Your clinic should be able to tell you how much all those different joint supplements work out to be over time. Feed back from people was just as good as with the supplements. They are individual and you may find certain ones don't work.

I think a trial of pain relief would definitely be beneficial and prob give you more idea on pain level.

[Nekhbet]

Look into Sprinter Gold Energy E oil instead of fish oil caps, it's more complete and also comes with Vitamin E which is really good for mopping up nasty compounds that can cause inflammation. Also a LOT cheaper, from greyhound supplies online or stockfeeds stores if you ask them to order it for you :)