Male Puppies Fighting

[Guest Ams]

Thank you everyone! Both dogs are desexed and it was initially the Border Collie who would initiate the fights. Then it was the Cattle Dog that was instigating it more and now that they are separated the BC is the one who will growl and try and fight through the glass door. When we got the CD from the RSPCA we took our other pup in with us. Having experienced this and done lots of research I am surprised that they let us take him, knowing he would be living with another male puppy. I don't want to take him back to the RSPCA as I'm worried they would put him down knowing there's been aggression issues. With a very heavy heart I have decided to rehome him. He is afraid of new people and we have formed such a close bond so it is a heartbreaking decision. I'm sure it's the right one for all of us but knowing that doesn't make it any easier.

In all fairness he still needs to go back to the RSPCA. You adopted from them and most rescue organisations have a clause that states if you are unable to keep the pet then it must be returned to them. I am not sure if this is the case with RSPCA NSW. It does sound like your BC has been the cause of the fights and some behaviour consults may be in order.

I see you have rehomed him to the friend of a neighbour. Here's hoping the two dogs don't meet on walks or at the local dog park.

[megan_]

If the breeder gave the dog up at 7 weeks I wouldn't be holding my breath for their help.

[Leah82]

make sure you keep an eye out for residual issues with your BC, the behaviour won't necessarily go away with the ACD

we had another dog living with us for a couple of months and she used to sniff around our cocker spaniel while he was eating so he started to urinate near his bowl. Now 3 months later if we don't keep a close eye on him he will wee near our other dog's bowl at dinner time, or as close as he can get as they are separated for meals.

[Christina]

Hope it all works out ok & it may do & the dog will settle fine with new owner & any other dogs around.

Behaviour & its reasoning can only be assumed on noted observation & experience however until dogs can talk in human language there can be erroneous assumptions & exceptions to the rules too.

No one knows for sure exactly why the trouble started, whose fault it was, who decided to keep the war going or that the dog will be a pest forever. Sometimes the prognosis for these behaviours gets a bit over the top prophet of doomish.

Good luck with it all.

IMO you did the right thing & returning dog to RSPCA or AWL does not usually mean it goes out to another home. It usually ends up dead.

[GeorgiB]

The RSPCA weren't too strict when they gave rusty to us, didn't ask any questions and we brought our other puppy in with us so if we took him back there I wouldn't count on them giving him to someone suitable. Either that or he could be euthanised. Thought it much better to find someone ourselves.

It would be very unlikely that the two dogs would ever run into each other, rusty's new home is half an hour away. And they could usually go for a walk together and walk reasonably close without fighting, it was really a problem only at home.

Rupert our border collie had the neighbours dog over to play tonight and they played happily for hours. Going for walks he will greet and play with other dogs too. I really think we had a case of two dogs that really didn't want to share a home.

Meanwhile, how do you deal with the loss of one of your best friends???!! Rusty went this afternoon and I feel completely and utterly heartbroken :(

[Nic.B]

I agree Rusty would be pts if returned to RSPCA or AWL.

Don't beat yourself up, we all make mistakes and you have learnt from this.

Time is the healer. Perhaps you can stay in touch via email, your friend may be happy to send you pic's of Rusty's new adventures. I wouldnt visit Rusty though, he needs time to settle into his new home and bond with his owner.

I hope it all goes well, enjoy your boy :)

[Amax-1]

I suggested he be rehomed as it is unusual for desexed dogs to fight

Far from it. Fighting and instigating conflict is not an exclusively hormone driven behavior in the slightest. The border collie was also named as the initial instigator of the fighting and now the CD is jack of it. Not surprised. I'd be more onto the BC as the problem child not the CD despite him being the potentially stronger of the two.

I think the more far reaching problem here is the BC. Call the breeder and ask about why the temperament has gone south and is such fight prevalent in their lines. If you got it from a backyard breeder that can explain some of the temperament. I've seen anti social BCs, they do exist. Not every BC is a roll over softy and some are instigators and finishers of some good fights.

Let me guess, the border is inside and the CD outside? That too can account for the BC growling and lunging through the door - he's all big and brave defending 'his' territory. You need to get on top of this dog ASAP, he should not be doing this at all through the door no matter what is out there. I think you're throwing problem child status on the wrong dog.

Separate and get a proper assessment of the dogs.

I totally agree with Nekhbet's view from what has been told. Having had my share of GSD's who fight each other and getting bitten a few times breaking them up, the key is getting control of the instigator which to me sounds like the BC also. I have found over the years that very few commercial trainers are good at remedies for family dog fights other than advising separation which of course from a safety aspect is correct advice, but a trainer experienced at solving fights within the home are generally very successful.

Often the instigator is the weaker dog and the problem is when the stronger dog has had enough of the unfair aggression towards it, the stronger dog will finish the fight with serious consequence. The weaker dog worries about it's pack standing where the stronger dog doesn't care unless provoked and challenged to fight. The instigator needs to fear the owner/handler and learn consequence from starting a fight, a concept badly lacking in modern training regimes unfortunately. To stop inter-home fights the offending dog needs to learn that aggression directed towards another dog in the family results in a fight from the leader (owner/handler), a fight the dog cannot win. I won't go into specifics of how it's done as it's a specialised field of training, but it can be done to restore tranquillity in the home assessing the right trainers experienced at correcting such a behaviour :)

As a side note: I have only ever found fights to be elevated with entire males in the direct presence of a bitch in season, other than that scenario entire or desexed makes no difference. Usually desexing is accompanied with training and the desexing is warranted with success. I disagree with that and believe the training that accompanied the desexing had the greater impact on behavioural modification.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Amax-1

[dancinbcs]

I think you have done the right thing completely giving Rusty to someone you trust, who has experience with the breed. The RSPCA would probably have pts for aggression issues. Just because two dogs fight, does not mean the will not be fine with other dogs, it can just be a personality clash.

BCs often get blamed for starting fights when in fact the other dog has started the conflict, stared them down and no one noticed. I have seen it happen at shows. To a BC staring is an outright challenge or threat from the other dog and their solution is to bite the offender, just as they do with sheep who stand up to them. Mine have all hated most terriers for this reason. They play well with other BCs who know that it is not acceptable to stare at another dog.

[OSoSwift]

Having lived with dogs who fought and tried to kill each otehr then had to be sperated until the eldest passed on you have done the right thing for all involved. It is very stressful living with dogs who fight and having to keep them seperate as one wrong move and they go in for the kill!

I would keep in touch but not visit. I know your heart is breaking but find some comfort in the fact that you put your dogs first.

[Simply Grand]

I suggested he be rehomed as it is unusual for desexed dogs to fight

Far from it. Fighting and instigating conflict is not an exclusively hormone driven behavior in the slightest. The border collie was also named as the initial instigator of the fighting and now the CD is jack of it. Not surprised. I'd be more onto the BC as the problem child not the CD despite him being the potentially stronger of the two.

I think the more far reaching problem here is the BC. Call the breeder and ask about why the temperament has gone south and is such fight prevalent in their lines. If you got it from a backyard breeder that can explain some of the temperament. I've seen anti social BCs, they do exist. Not every BC is a roll over softy and some are instigators and finishers of some good fights.

Let me guess, the border is inside and the CD outside? That too can account for the BC growling and lunging through the door - he's all big and brave defending 'his' territory. You need to get on top of this dog ASAP, he should not be doing this at all through the door no matter what is out there. I think you're throwing problem child status on the wrong dog.

Separate and get a proper assessment of the dogs.

I totally agree with Nekhbet's view from what has been told. Having had my share of GSD's who fight each other and getting bitten a few times breaking them up, the key is getting control of the instigator which to me sounds like the BC also. I have found over the years that very few commercial trainers are good at remedies for family dog fights other than advising separation which of course from a safety aspect is correct advice, but a trainer experienced at solving fights within the home are generally very successful.

Often the instigator is the weaker dog and the problem is when the stronger dog has had enough of the unfair aggression towards it, the stronger dog will finish the fight with serious consequence. The weaker dog worries about it's pack standing where the stronger dog doesn't care unless provoked and challenged to fight. The instigator needs to fear the owner/handler and learn consequence from starting a fight, a concept badly lacking in modern training regimes unfortunately. To stop inter-home fights the offending dog needs to learn that aggression directed towards another dog in the family results in a fight from the leader (owner/handler), a fight the dog cannot win. I won't go into specifics of how it's done as it's a specialised field of training, but it can be done to restore tranquillity in the home assessing the right trainers experienced at correcting such a behaviour :)

As a side note: I have only ever found fights to be elevated with entire males in the direct presence of a bitch in season, other than that scenario entire or desexed makes no difference. Usually desexing is accompanied with training and the desexing is warranted with success. I disagree with that and believe the training that accompanied the desexing had the greater impact on behavioural modification.

I would never want to live in, or subject my dogs to living in, a home where two dogs that obviously have an issue with each other because they've been fighting are forced to live together because the "weaker" one fears ME too much to initiate a fight.

[lovemesideways]

I suggested he be rehomed as it is unusual for desexed dogs to fight

Far from it. Fighting and instigating conflict is not an exclusively hormone driven behavior in the slightest. The border collie was also named as the initial instigator of the fighting and now the CD is jack of it. Not surprised. I'd be more onto the BC as the problem child not the CD despite him being the potentially stronger of the two.

I think the more far reaching problem here is the BC. Call the breeder and ask about why the temperament has gone south and is such fight prevalent in their lines. If you got it from a backyard breeder that can explain some of the temperament. I've seen anti social BCs, they do exist. Not every BC is a roll over softy and some are instigators and finishers of some good fights.

Let me guess, the border is inside and the CD outside? That too can account for the BC growling and lunging through the door - he's all big and brave defending 'his' territory. You need to get on top of this dog ASAP, he should not be doing this at all through the door no matter what is out there. I think you're throwing problem child status on the wrong dog.

Separate and get a proper assessment of the dogs.

I totally agree with Nekhbet's view from what has been told. Having had my share of GSD's who fight each other and getting bitten a few times breaking them up, the key is getting control of the instigator which to me sounds like the BC also. I have found over the years that very few commercial trainers are good at remedies for family dog fights other than advising separation which of course from a safety aspect is correct advice, but a trainer experienced at solving fights within the home are generally very successful.

Often the instigator is the weaker dog and the problem is when the stronger dog has had enough of the unfair aggression towards it, the stronger dog will finish the fight with serious consequence. The weaker dog worries about it's pack standing where the stronger dog doesn't care unless provoked and challenged to fight. The instigator needs to fear the owner/handler and learn consequence from starting a fight, a concept badly lacking in modern training regimes unfortunately. To stop inter-home fights the offending dog needs to learn that aggression directed towards another dog in the family results in a fight from the leader (owner/handler), a fight the dog cannot win. I won't go into specifics of how it's done as it's a specialised field of training, but it can be done to restore tranquillity in the home assessing the right trainers experienced at correcting such a behaviour :)

As a side note: I have only ever found fights to be elevated with entire males in the direct presence of a bitch in season, other than that scenario entire or desexed makes no difference. Usually desexing is accompanied with training and the desexing is warranted with success. I disagree with that and believe the training that accompanied the desexing had the greater impact on behavioural modification.

You don't stop dog aggression by making the dog fear you more than everything else, what a horrible notion! Ideas like that are why people think the corrections are all about pain and fear, eesh. On top of that, the idea that I could beat a dog in a fight is not something I believe or want to try and achieve, what a silly and dangerous notion.

[Salukifan]

Often the instigator is the weaker dog and the problem is when the stronger dog has had enough of the unfair aggression towards it, the stronger dog will finish the fight with serious consequence. The weaker dog worries about it's pack standing where the stronger dog doesn't care unless provoked and challenged to fight. The instigator needs to fear the owner/handler and learn consequence from starting a fight, a concept badly lacking in modern training regimes unfortunately. To stop inter-home fights the offending dog needs to learn that aggression directed towards another dog in the family results in a fight from the leader (owner/handler), a fight the dog cannot win. I won't go into specifics of how it's done as it's a specialised field of training, but it can be done to restore tranquillity in the home assessing the right trainers experienced at correcting such a behaviour :)

Possibly one of the silliest things I've read here in quite some time - and dangerous to boot.

Please tell me you aren't a dog trainer.

I can think of no respected trainer who thinks that the way to treat dog aggression is with more aggression.

Most larger dogs are more than capable of "winning" a dog fight with a human being if they mean business - what tripe.

Go read up on redirected aggression before you dispense this kind of advice.

ANY training method that potentially encourages a dog to bite a person is unsafe. Period.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[persephone]

..or rephrase the sentence if you mean .. a training session to restore some control.... the image of someone 'fighting with' /overpowering a dog is very scary.

[Nekhbet]

You don't stop dog aggression by making the dog fear you more than everything else, what a horrible notion! Ideas like that are why people think the corrections are all about pain and fear, eesh. On top of that, the idea that I could beat a dog in a fight is not something I believe or want to try and achieve, what a silly and dangerous notion.

I know what Amax is saying, and I think the wires got a bit crossed.

To a dog it's about weighing up a fight. Yes, it is a 'fight' and don't take that as in a pure physical altercation. If the dog learns that there is nothing to 'stop' it it will pick, start and even finish the argument. If the dog knows there is another in the household that will metaphorically (or in some required cases physically) kick their butt if they start BS they will not do it - and be that human or canine because some groups can manage themselves.

Fear, fortunately or unfortunately, is a powerful motivator. Again I think it's slightly the wrong word in the situation which is why everyone is flapping about it. Let's take a scenario ... years ago I got a GSD. I knew she was NQR and trained so I was careful. So I thought she was fine, we played a little with a rag one day at home when she went off. She got too comfortable. She tried to attack my brother and my fiance, I sent them down to the house to get the rifle and then the dog turned on me. I was wearing boots and I used them, it was that or hospital. Did the dog fear me from that day on? Nope, she never shied, cowered etc. But if I said no, stop it etc, she did because there was now a memorable consequence to her dangerous actions. AGain, an extreme example but do you see where we're both trying to go with this :laugh: it's a bit hard to explain over the net.

[Salukifan]

Fear, fortunately or unfortunately, is a powerful motivator. Again I think it's slightly the wrong word in the situation which is why everyone is flapping about it. Let's take a scenario ... years ago I got a GSD. I knew she was NQR and trained so I was careful. So I thought she was fine, we played a little with a rag one day at home when she went off. She got too comfortable. She tried to attack my brother and my fiance, I sent them down to the house to get the rifle and then the dog turned on me. I was wearing boots and I used them, it was that or hospital. Did the dog fear me from that day on? Nope, she never shied, cowered etc. But if I said no, stop it etc, she did because there was now a memorable consequence to her dangerous actions. AGain, an extreme example but do you see where we're both trying to go with this :laugh: it's a bit hard to explain over the net.

Nope, not really. And I really don't think any method like this is suitable for pet dog owners - weighing into a dog fight gets a lot of people hurt - and the dog learns that biting gets a person to back off.

I think the OP did the right thing rehoming the dog. Pet dog ownership shouldn't require a whip and a chair.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[dancinbcs]

You don't stop dog aggression by making the dog fear you more than everything else, what a horrible notion! Ideas like that are why people think the corrections are all about pain and fear, eesh. On top of that, the idea that I could beat a dog in a fight is not something I believe or want to try and achieve, what a silly and dangerous notion.

I know what Amax is saying, and I think the wires got a bit crossed.

To a dog it's about weighing up a fight. Yes, it is a 'fight' and don't take that as in a pure physical altercation. If the dog learns that there is nothing to 'stop' it it will pick, start and even finish the argument. If the dog knows there is another in the household that will metaphorically (or in some required cases physically) kick their butt if they start BS they will not do it - and be that human or canine because some groups can manage themselves.

Fear, fortunately or unfortunately, is a powerful motivator. Again I think it's slightly the wrong word in the situation which is why everyone is flapping about it. Let's take a scenario ... years ago I got a GSD. I knew she was NQR and trained so I was careful. So I thought she was fine, we played a little with a rag one day at home when she went off. She got too comfortable. She tried to attack my brother and my fiance, I sent them down to the house to get the rifle and then the dog turned on me. I was wearing boots and I used them, it was that or hospital. Did the dog fear me from that day on? Nope, she never shied, cowered etc. But if I said no, stop it etc, she did because there was now a memorable consequence to her dangerous actions. AGain, an extreme example but do you see where we're both trying to go with this :laugh: it's a bit hard to explain over the net.

I get what you are talking about and I think respect is a better word than fear. I know the idea of an alpha dog or owner is out of fashion in dog training but when you do have a very confident owner or a clear alpha dog that keeps all the dogs in line, in a household, fights usually don't happen. In the case of an alpha dog, when it dies there are often serious fights between other dogs left in the household as the one they respected and relied upon, is gone. With owners, you need to be a certain type of person to gain the full respect of your dogs and most pet owners are just not like that. I and many of my friends have had dogs that didn't get on very well but we could run them together under direct supervision. Watching body language allowed us to reprimand any bad manners before a fight started as the dogs respected us and would obey even if in the mood to start trouble. Leaving those same dogs together unsupervised would result in fights. So the presence of the owner means the dogs simply follow the rules expected of them. I have also seen very aggressive dogs become meek and mild in the presence of some dog trainers, before they even do anything. Their total confidence, bearing and voice makes the dog secure enough to not even try any sort of misbehaviour. It makes it very hard for these trainers to observe the problem behaviour when the dog is so much in awe of them but it very interesting to watch.

[Loving my Oldies]

Meanwhile, how do you deal with the loss of one of your best friends???!! Rusty went this afternoon and I feel completely and utterly heartbroken :(

Of course you must feel devastated. A lot of people here can relate to the situation as to why you had to rehome one of your dogs and to the way you feel now.

Rusty has gone to an experienced cattle dog owner who wants him to be included in his day to day activities which seems to bode well for a life of love and care for him.

Best of luck.

ETA: Just realised that you posted this on 30 December nearly two weeks ago. Have you any update as to how Rusty is settling in? I am sure your BC is much happier now.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Danny's Darling

[Christina]

When you have multiple dogs someone has to be the feared pack leader & that is or should be the owner ME. It doesn't mean that the person has to beat or do anything cruel but they do have to assert themselves by some means.

[tdierikx]

I have 2 bitches who will fight to the death at the slightest trigger - they could be fine together for ages, then something would set them off and it would be on.

I have successfully been able to separate them for the past 4 years... but I live alone and don't have to train other family members to follow the strict no contact rules for those two dogs.

The fun part is when I have to be away for more than a day. I have to board at least one of those two dogs so that whoever is feeding and exercising my dogs doesn't have to work the swapsy schedule.

I couldn't rehome either of my two dogs due to knowing exactly what they are capable of when pushed - so I had to choose to do the separation thing or euthanaise one or both dogs...

T.

[lovemesideways]

When you have multiple dogs someone has to be the feared pack leader & that is or should be the owner ME. It doesn't mean that the person has to beat or do anything cruel but they do have to assert themselves by some means.

My dogs do not fear me in the slightest, and the idea that anyone would want to be feared is horrifying to me. Do people seriously think they need their dogs to "fear" them? Far out. Poor dogs.

How dangerous would it be if my WL GSD feared me, no doubt there would one day be a post going "and then my dog ALL OF A SUDDEN attacked me for no reason...."