Makes One Wonder

[sandgrubber]

Diet is clearly important, but not necessarily in the ways we think. Carefully conducted studies have shown that overfeeding increases chronic illness problems and shortens lifespan (reference below). It's hard to know what, beyond not overfeeding and meeting some minimum guidelines, is important. And I have little doubt that there's a lot of market hype to get us to spend more on our much beloved. I suspect all this 'grain free' stuff is bull dust, unless you have one of those dogs who is allergic to some grain.

Kealy et al (2002) Effects of diet restriction on life span and age-related changes in dogs

https://www.avma.org..._220_9_1315.pdf

I fed mostly BARF in Australia, but it's hard to source BARF at a reasonable price where I live now, and premium dry food is much cheaper in the US than in Oz (I pay ~$45 for a 15 kg bag of Eukanuba or ProPlan)...so I've shifted to dry food plus occasional veg, fruit, and bones. I can't see any change in my dogs health. I can't see justifying the extra $10 to $15/bag for super premium.

Edited December 30, 2013 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

Google epigenetics and especially epigenetics agouti mice. Its exciting stuff and from a breeders perspective so important. What if those pushing anti commercial foods are right and HD is in the main the result of diet - not just the diet of the dog in question but also the diet of dogs in previous generations

[Steve]

This is a good one - it says [ among other things] that If a grandmother smokes her grandaughter has 4 times the chance of having asthma

http://books.google....dmother&f=false

Edited December 30, 2013 by Steve

[sandgrubber]

Google epigenetics and especially epigenetics agouti mice. Its exciting stuff and from a breeders perspective so important. What if those pushing anti commercial foods are right and HD is in the main the result of diet - not just the diet of the dog in question but also the diet of dogs in previous generations

I'm aware of the mouse studies, but seems to me that people have overgeneralized from them. It's a long leap to go from a few studies of rodents to supposing that commercial foods or vaccines are causing disease via epigenetic mechanisms. This article is critiquing use of epigenetics to explain mental illness in humans . . . but similar arguments apply (though it's pretty hard to study identical twins with dogs). To my knowledge no one has found a smoking gun linking a specific epigenetic change to a specific disease (or allergy) in dogs.

http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2013/01/the-trouble-with-epigenetics-part-1.html

http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2013/01/the-trouble-with-epigenetics-part-2.html

[huski]

I don't question the importance of feeding a good diet, I have seen obvious changes in my own dogs when I changed to a better quality diet. I see and feel a difference in myself when I eat better and healthier food.

Whether a dog is capable of living to an old age on crap food is irrelevant to me when it comes to why I feed my dogs quality diets.

[raineth]

As for diets and genetics: there is evidence among us humans that our grandmothers' diets, and the diets of our mothers while they were pregnant can turn certain genes on and off in their offspring. This research alludes mainly to women who had little food intake (because of the Depression for example) can lead to certain genes being turned on or off that mean that offspring are prepared for an environment where food is sarce, and therefore to a propensity to gain weight easily. It is therefore also possible that the same is happening for our dogs, and maybe it influences more than how easily your dog will get fat or not. It would be very interesting to look at the influence diet can have, not only to the individual dog, but to that dog's offspring (if any).

I've often heard that said, but have not been able to find references. Any idea who did the study(ies) and/or where it/they is published?

Dr Jeff Craig looks at how and what turns genes on and off in humans using twin studies.

[Steve]

Well considering my mother is responsible for the eggs that were already inside of me and that were used to produce my children and I breed dogs over multiple generations - for me - that places huge importance on what I feed and expose my girls to so they get the best diet possible and live as stress free with limits on exposure to chemicals and personally when I purchase a pup bred by someone else Im more interested in that than I am in hip or elbow scores etc. Just in case. Feeding a less quality diet may have little or no impact on one dog not used for breeding but in case it has a negative impact on its offspring for me there is no wondering as to why I do it.

[sandgrubber]

As for diets and genetics: there is evidence among us humans that our grandmothers' diets, and the diets of our mothers while they were pregnant can turn certain genes on and off in their offspring. This research alludes mainly to women who had little food intake (because of the Depression for example) can lead to certain genes being turned on or off that mean that offspring are prepared for an environment where food is sarce, and therefore to a propensity to gain weight easily. It is therefore also possible that the same is happening for our dogs, and maybe it influences more than how easily your dog will get fat or not. It would be very interesting to look at the influence diet can have, not only to the individual dog, but to that dog's offspring (if any).

I've often heard that said, but have not been able to find references. Any idea who did the study(ies) and/or where it/they is published?

Dr Jeff Craig looks at how and what turns genes on and off in humans using twin studies.

Here's the reference we should probably be using . . . but would have to pay for it and it would be hard slogging.

Nat Rev Genet. 2012 Jan 31;13(3):153-62. doi: 10.1038/nrg3188.

Understanding transgenerational epigenetic inheritance via the gametes in mammals.

Daxinger L, Whitelaw E.

Author information

• Queensland Institute of Medical Research, Herston, Queensland 4006, Australia.

Abstract

It is known that information that is not contained in the DNA sequence - epigenetic information - can be inherited from the parent to the offspring. However, many questions remain unanswered regarding the extent and mechanisms of such inheritance. In this Review, we consider the evidence for transgenerational epigenetic inheritance via the gametes, including cases of environmentally induced epigenetic changes. The molecular basis of this inheritance remains unclear, but recent evidence points towards diffusible factors, in particular RNA, rather than DNA methylation or chromatin. Interestingly, many cases of epigenetic inheritance seem to involve repeat sequences.

[sandgrubber]

Well considering my mother is responsible for the eggs that were already inside of me and that were used to produce my children and I breed dogs over multiple generations - for me - that places huge importance on what I feed and expose my girls to so they get the best diet possible and live as stress free with limits on exposure to chemicals and personally when I purchase a pup bred by someone else Im more interested in that than I am in hip or elbow scores etc. Just in case. Feeding a less quality diet may have little or no impact on one dog not used for breeding but in case it has a negative impact on its offspring for me there is no wondering as to why I do it.

That requires a lot of flying blind. The epigenetic switching of the agouti gene in mice (resulting in higher frequency of obese, yellow mice) seems to be triggered by one chemical used in plastics manufacture . . . not a food (see http://www.nature.co...-regulation-927). The problem , if there is one, could come in the water or the air, or in everyday objects we thought were benign, or through exposure to UV light, or from a pathogen, or from being too hot or too cold as a neonate, or who knows what else, not just food. Feeding BARF? Could be that something in the slaughterhouse that processes the chooks could be a switch. Who knows.

Found a good reasonably recent review article that can be downloaded free and is fairly understandable

Lucia Daxinger and Emma Whitelaw. Transgenerational epigenetic inheritence: More questions than answers

Genome Res. 2010 December; 20(12): 1623–1628.

Edited December 31, 2013 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

Yep I see all that I just feel better when Im doing everything I can to cut down the risks just in case and so far that's worked for me. I grow all of my own food organically - no chemicals here.