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Mental Description Of A Dog


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Has anyone heard of this? It's also called the MH or MUH and from what I understand it's of Swedish origin.

Some links:

http://www.lapphund.nu/mheng.htm

http://www.doremis.se/mental_description_of_dog.htm

http://www.briardworld.com/working/swedTT.html

I've heard very good things about it from professionals in the field. It's basically a temp test for working dogs to test multiple aspects of their genetic behavioural make-up. The test is apparently so stressful, that any temperament faults are extremely obvious by the end. A dog's handler can opt out at any stage so as to prevent behavioural damage. The dog is supposed to show courage, be able to bounce back from several gun shots, and be curious and possibly defensive of strange 'beings' (people dressed up and moving oddly, see last video). The dog should also show strong play drive - before, during and after the test. There is no 'fail' and no 'pass', as in the Korning; the dogs score reflects how (and if) it should be bred. It's not uncommon for entire working litters to be tested at once, to test the heritability of the parents traits.

Unfortunately, much of the information available is in Swedish. The stuff that's been translated is rather basic too. I'd love to find someone with a thorough knowledge of this test to talk to, but I think I might have to contact the source in Sweden. I wonder how receptive the working and pet dog community would be if this was introduced - not on a compulsory basis obviously. Sweden has made this compulsory, and the only way to sit the test is if the dog is over a certain age and has clear hips and elbows. The more I hear about this thing, the more excited I get about the prospects of introducing it here :)

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I've heard of the test, but never seen it in action, so that was very interesting.

Just a clarification though, this test isn't used for pet dogs, it's only compulsory if you want to participate in certain dog sports.

Oops, yes only compulsory for dog sports.

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What sports is it compulsory for?

I think Schutzhund/IPO? I could be wrong about that, but I think anything that involves biting a suit/sleeve may require this test. A lot of working dog people regularly test dogs, it's seen as economical as they don't want to be wasting time and money breeding unsound dogs.

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What sports is it compulsory for?

I think Schutzhund/IPO? I could be wrong about that, but I think anything that involves biting a suit/sleeve may require this test. A lot of working dog people regularly test dogs, it's seen as economical as they don't want to be wasting time and money breeding unsound dogs.

Really? But that's what a BH is for? Interesting.

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What sports is it compulsory for?

I think Schutzhund/IPO? I could be wrong about that, but I think anything that involves biting a suit/sleeve may require this test. A lot of working dog people regularly test dogs, it's seen as economical as they don't want to be wasting time and money breeding unsound dogs.

Really? But that's what a BH is for? Interesting.

The BH is getting more and more watered down. Perhaps this test was designed in response to that? What the BH is missing is unpredictability; it's a tried and tested routine. While I'm no expert, I think the MH is specifically designed to cause the dog stress and see how it responds to that stress. Unlike the BH, there is no pass and fail either. It also tests the ability of parent dogs to pass on their traits. There is no (or very little) training involved for the MH, so even green dogs can participate - this means that working (not sport) dogs can be tested without the formality and time consuming training of competitive obedience routines.

Again though, I'm no expert on either test or IPO, it's just a special interest :)

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The test is also required for a type of field work. I'm not sure if the field work over there is what you call "field work" here in Australia, as I know it also incorporates obedience and takes place over several days (?).

But yes, definitely required for IPO.

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Really? But that's what a BH is for? Interesting.

BH isn't much, even IPO isn't worth much anymore for a lot of services considering the availability of other methods of testing that far surpass SCH/IPO. We're starting Civilian Companion down here and even for the pet dogs that is more the BH.

The Mental Health description is a fabulous idea, it's real life scenarios and situations that test the dogs temperament to it's limits. That's what you want to see when breeding, they still believe highly in the importance of the dogs temperament and how that affects future breedings. It's also graded and critiqued so the reports are available.

http://www.darlingpaws.se/en/stella/mh-mental-description-3757320

Edited by Nekhbet
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What I meant is that it's interesting that both this and the BH is compulsory for IPO. Sport is different to working and breeding dogs. I think the test sounds interesting but I wouldn't agree with it being compulsory for sport dogs. What is the point? Plenty of people do sport without having an interest in breeding

Edited by huski
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Sport is different to working and breeding dogs. I think the test sounds interesting but I wouldn't agree with it being compulsory for sport dogs. What is the point? Plenty of people do sport without having an interest in breeding

Schutzhund titles are compulsory for GSDs in Germany, and the point of dogsports were as a method of evaluation. Where these assessments and sports happen is a lot different mindset then here in Australia where 4 legs and a heartbeat is enough to breed a dog. ANyone can write an assessment for a dog that you want to breed/sell and make it sound fantastic, but an unbiased opinion is the validation. Even for sportdogs, wouldn't you want to see that you got what you paid for? Most people go training at least 3-4 days a week for some dogsports, I know for KNPV most guys are at training 5 times a week to prepare.

Edited by Nekhbet
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I know that it was the original purpose but that's not the case here and I would say for many people it's more about the sport and competition than testing the dogs for breeding.

Do you really need a test to prove you got what you paid for in a sport dog? Wouldn't the proof be in the titles and competition, that is what that's there for and if you can't do the test until the dog is 1 or 2 then that's all that time wasted up until then with a dog that doesn't score well. I think it's good to have the option there but I don't see why it should be compulsory for sport dogs.

ETA: a dog doesn't have to be a super genetic specimen to be a good comp dog. Genetics are important but if you don't have the most super dog that doesn't mean you can't compete and do well if you are willing to put the time in. I would guess that many dogs here in Oz wouldn't score super well on this style of test, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do sport.

Edited by huski
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I know that it was the original purpose but that's not the case here and I would say for many people it's more about the sport and competition than testing the dogs for breeding.

Here in Australia it's not about breeding, and frankly it's why we're surrounded by so many below standard animals and keep breeding them.

There is a different mentality in Europe then there is here - people spend good money on a dog and for their own pride too do exercises like this. No you can't do the test until 12 months of age but the dog needs to mature and you need to do the groundwork to get it there. The MH tests have clubs that help people train and socialise, it's not just something you rock up to out of the blue and see what happens.

Is it nerve racking to have your dog tested? Hell yeah. I had my own bitch critiqued by two trainers from the Netherlands and you do think will all that time and effort have been worth it. But if you've done the work with the dog and have the genetics behind you, there's the reward at the end of it.

a dog doesn't have to be a super genetic specimen to be a good comp dog. Genetics are important but if you don't have the most super dog that doesn't mean you can't compete and do well if you are willing to put the time in. I would guess that many dogs here in Oz wouldn't score super well on this style of test, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do sport.

Where do you think the super part comes from? If that could be trained in there would be no need for character tests.

You can't train some things into a dog. Strength of nerve, courage, stability are genetic traits. Yes you can ruin a good dog to a degree, and build up a half arsed one with skill of course. But most dog sports are also still testing those genetic traits, even SCH. You can't train any old dog to go bite a sleeve with a full mouth, grip the decoy and hang on for grim death. If it's not in the dog, it wont come no matter how hard you try.

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I'm not saying any dog can be trained to compete in IPO. It is a very small sport here compared to others. I wouldn't say every dog I've seen compete have all been cream of the crop genetically. But does that mean their handlers should get rid of the dogs and not bother? It is sport not life and death.

Ideally every serious competitor will select a puppy with the ultimate genetics, but that's not always the case. I know many competitors who started out with dogs that aren't ideal sport dogs but put work in to get the most out of the dog as possible and they do well (i am not talking about IPO specifically).

You said that handlers do the test to make sure they "got what they paid for" with their sport dogs. What happens if the dog doesn't score well? Do they just dump it? Get rid of it? Send it back to the breeder? After living and training with the dog for 12 months?

ETA: if you put the work in and have a dog with super genetics is there any need to be nervous, the test will simply validate what you already know. :)

Edited by huski
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It's basically a temp test for working dogs to test multiple aspects of their genetic behavioural make-up

How do you know it's a test of genetics if you train the dog to do the test?

I'm pretty sure my dog would bark at the white person but not bite them or run away. She's done that to men in hoodies... cos the hoodies are weird. As soon as the hoodie is off - she's all wiggly embarrassed friendly.

I'm sure she would not go play tug with anyone else. And she would not willingly walk on lead away from me with someone else. Even a friend, she gets just so far, decides I'm not coming too and starts to argue - politely is sitting down and refusing to budge. Less polite is dragging the person back to me.

However if she was completely untrained... she'd go on lead with anyone but eat the lead the whole way. And she'd probably bite the strange white wrap people's ankles.

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I wouldn't say every dog I've seen compete have all been cream of the crop genetically. But does that mean their handlers should get rid of the dogs and not bother? It is sport not life and death.

You said that handlers do the test to make sure they "got what they paid for" with their sport dogs. What happens if the dog doesn't score well? Do they just dump it? Get rid of it? Send it back to the breeder? After living and training with the dog for 12 months?

And I'm talking from a European perspective, which they take their dog sports a lot more seriously. Of course there are always dogs out there competing that don't go into almost perfect scores and ride the scrape through marks or averages. It's why pass rates are not set at 99% or majority would fail. But if you want to go on and achieve SCH3 and you find your dog doesn't have the nerve to pass a basic test, well you know you're going to be pushing the proverbial up hill for no result, and the dog will probably not enjoy most of the process.

If you paid say, $2000+ for a propspective good dog, and it couldn't do the job you wanted it to do, yes, many people would onsell it to something more suitable if their primary aim is trialling. It's not fair on the dog to live in a home it's not suited too and a lot of people do not have the resources to just keep a dog that they can't do anything with. Saying that there are breeders that will take the dog back if not suited to the position you have wanted it for, give you a full refund too. That's faith in your breeding. It's no different to purchasing a breeding dog, finding it has shit hips and elbows and asking the breeder for a refund because the dog cannot fulfil the function it was purchased for. Sounds blunt, but that's reality.

Many dogs are trialled, titled and then moved on as well. Plenty of people do that here in Australia with show and sport dogs as well it's just seen as a no no by the general public.

How do you know it's a test of genetics if you train the dog to do the test?

Once again there are parts of the test that you cannot train. Let's say the gun test, of course you need to expose your dog to gunfire because 99% of dogs exposed to a noise like that for the very first time are going to swing around in a WTF moment. But a dog with poor nerve will never cope with a whip snapped right above its ear or a gun fired over its head. It just cant hold itself together to cope with it. These tests are not about routines, but about reactions to situations. Dogs are surprised, exposed to random and erratic behaviors and done in places they are not used to. You can prepare a dog so far for that type of testing but you rely on genetics to do the rest. I'll give you an example, the male dog I have was tested with a whip. They cracked the whip over his head while he was taking a drink, there was no flinching or pausing. He looked sideways in acknowledgement of someone there but it didn't phase him one bit. Far from being deaf or stuffing his ears with cotton wool, genetics did the work on that one.

I think because we don't see or use a lot of tests like this in Australia we can't really grasp their full function. They're not just about obedience routines in a set pattern, they're made to be unpredictable to a degree to see the natural reaction of the dog when under stress and not under full cues from the handler. Any dog can trot around in a set pattern time and time again, but this is throwing in the proverbial firecracker to see what the instincts say to do. Fight, flight, or go to sleep :laugh:

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ETA: if you put the work in and have a dog with super genetics is there any need to be nervous, the test will simply validate what you already know

Yes but it's still a living creature with a mind of it's own. They can still have bad days, be in pain, injure themselves during testing etc. Even the best dogs can just up and put in a bad performance. I know my dogs will work, heck one's had a rib cracked and kept going, another shredded her face just going in to retrieve a toy. Malinois ... the messy breed :laugh:

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Any dog can trot around in a set pattern time and time gain,

Well not any dog, as you already said not every dog has the right genetics to do IPO :)

It is a much much larger sport in Europe (I'm quite envious as a dog sport loving person! :) ). I know many people do on sell dogs and I don't particularly have a problem with it but it isn't something I think I could do if I was attached to the dog. I also don't believe for a second I could live with and train a dog I selected as a pup for 12 months and not already be CERTAIN it has what it takes to be a good sport dog. Obviously there are benefits to doing an independent assessment (just like there are benefits to competing and proving yourself and your dog as competitors if that's your goal).

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It's basically a temp test for working dogs to test multiple aspects of their genetic behavioural make-up

How do you know it's a test of genetics if you train the dog to do the test?

I'm pretty sure my dog would bark at the white person but not bite them or run away. She's done that to men in hoodies... cos the hoodies are weird. As soon as the hoodie is off - she's all wiggly embarrassed friendly.

I'm sure she would not go play tug with anyone else. And she would not willingly walk on lead away from me with someone else. Even a friend, she gets just so far, decides I'm not coming too and starts to argue - politely is sitting down and refusing to budge. Less polite is dragging the person back to me.

However if she was completely untrained... she'd go on lead with anyone but eat the lead the whole way. And she'd probably bite the strange white wrap people's ankles.

I'm sure training is possible to improve results. But from what I've heard, the amount of stressors in such quick succession is enough to undo any previous efforts at training.

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