Importing New Bloodline

[Luke GSP]

(...)

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

The Weims was for Blackjaq :)

In regard to people having an idea, as you said, there are working Springer lines already here, they seem to have no greater issue with puppies going to homes than any other breed, (unless there is a disproportionate amount of working line spaniels in all the dog pounds that I don't know of? ) so I don't see why a working cocker would be so different a prospect? What exactly do you think that a working line cocker does that is going to create a greater issue than any other type of dog, working line or not, if purchased by an uninformed owner? Assuming that there would be an uninformed owner? Not sure why one would seek out WORKING line cocker in particular rather than any one of the myriad of breeds and puppies available on a much wider basis?

The biggest difference for me would be that in reality the people interested, and that would be involved are a very small group, who are all interested in having a level of diversity to be able to draw from, when you look at the DOL adverts, there are plenty of dog breeds that require "management" (in fact you could argue that all breeds require a level of management if they are to be brought up to be good canine citizens)that have permanent puppies available 365 days a year from multiple different breeders. Most of which, I would assume are limited register pups being sold on as the breeder didn't feel that they were of good enough confirmation. Sorry for being thick, but I honestly cannot see how limited breeding of a niche working line would cause such a massive issue?

Not sure if this was all addressed at me & Weims but basically, on top of the strong prey drive, the performance bred Weim has man sharpness and a very strong guarding instinct. This can translate to issues with aggression toward other dogs, animals in general, humans and, most importantly (in my opinion) their own handler. Many Weims are reported to have aggression issues (most issues are simply caused by inept owners and are not genuinely to be attributed to the dog being aggressive). Would you recommend a man sharp working line GSD to the average pet home?

I am not as familiar with GSPs as I am with Weims but many people seem to have similar issues here. They are strong, sharp breeds under pet/show conditions, but genuine working lines encourage many of these traits (especially game and predator sharpness), so often it is only matter of time until the issues I have listed above appear in pet homes, since the dogs generally do not receive enough work and owners are often unprepared/ignorant. Event those who believe they are aware often still have trouble dealing with issues when and if they arise.

I know that some people in Australia claim to breed for hunting ability, but unless the dogs are actually worked and compared to other dogs doing the same work, there can be no genuine selection for the traits necessary for active hunting duties. Of course many dogs do ok at field trials etc in spite of this, but field trials are not necessarily a representation of genuine hunting conditions.

Basically I am afraid of Weims falling under DD dog laws due to the working bred dogs' propensity to resort to aggression when under managed, under exercised or under stimulated. That does not mean I find any of these traits bad. Not at all, they are very necessary for humane hunting with the dog (as the dog has to be willing and able to quickly catch and kill injured game and pest animals, even in difficult or uncomfortable terrain). Are they negative for a pet home? Probably yes.

Working bred GSPs are not bred for man sharpness in their country of origin and should not be bred for it elsewhere. However, GSPs (especially working lines) are still prone to many of the same issues as I have listed above, as most people experienced with the breed will know (not saying you are not, but I have to wonder why you seem to be unaware of the issues presented by working bred HPR dogs in pet homes).

Weimaraner, GSPs etc already require a huge amount of management from their handlers, I am reluctant to bring in dogs whose management requirements would be even higher than what is already here and already causing trouble for a lot of owners, well informed or otherwise.

As I said, this would probably not be an issue for Cockers (unless suffering from Cocker rage haha), as Cockers are bred for a totally different style of work.

And yes, "sharpness" does not at all refer to intelligence (not sure why you would think so), it refers to potential aggression levels in various situations (i.e. facing a human, facing a fox, facing a shot animal on the move etc) and the willingness to take on that situation, regardless of discomfort (i.e. chasing an injured fox into blackberries, catching and killing the fox in thorny cover) is generally referred to as "being hard" in European countries (not sure how this would best translate into English?)

Basically, I am not at all concerned that your working line Cocker puppies will wreak havoc in their pet homes, I simply cannot see the point in importing a spent bitch and then homing the few pups you would be likely to get into pet homes, after you went to all that expense and effort to get them in the first place. You cannot accurately assess the offspring's working ability (i.e. the success of your breeding program) if they are in pet homes (i.e. not working).

You really cannot compare working Cockers and working Weis (or even GSPs), it's apples and oranges, really

I think maybe you should do a little more research into breeding working line dogs to make sure you are not disappointed by the results of this exercise. You are looking to spend a lot of money here and it would be a shame if nothing useful came of it :)

Maybe there isn't the type of work over here for a working weimeraner? not sure of the legalities of using dogs to bring down another animal (other than feral pigs) hence understand why you would not want to bring them in as ultimately they may not be of any use and there are plenty of people with very effective "bull arabs" here already if bringing game down is your thing. If you feel that you or others may not be able to manage such an animal, then it is totally understandable.

I'm not "unaware" of the "issues" of working dogs in pet homes, I just personally think that "people not being able to manage working line dogs in a pet home" is a minuscule problem compared to the fact that a far higher number of dog issues are caused by "people not being able to manage a dog in a pet home" Look round pounds, look at bite stats, what percentage of those dogs do you reckon are true working line dogs? Not working category, working bred. In that regard I reckon the few pups that might come of me breeding a couple of litters, taking and sharing the best with like minded trainers and then selling the very few remaining pups to pet homes after informing them of what the pup is capable of and is bred for poses very little negative in the greater scheme of things.

The expense was to get top class field titled dogs, the ability to breed with them is no extra cost, the cost is that they are mature, trained, proven, useful animals.So whether I bred them or not, the value for me, is what they are, not what they might produce. If it helped the breed in Australia, then I would like for them to be able to contribute to the bloodlines that are already here and widen the options, much the same as I am sure has happened with every breed whilst being established. If not, I would still own and have for my enjoyment two awesome dogs. :thumbsup: :) :) :)

In regard to selecting a pup, of all the people I know in the UK who are breeders and trainers, they don't hold an entire litter and then train them all, they select the ones that show the most promise, and then work with them, if later on that promise does not continue they then place the dog out to a rough shooting home or as a pet. Much the same as breeders on DOL who have more mature dogs that do not grow as close to confirmation as they initially thought. They don't keep them all until full fruition, they have first cull, hedge their bets and then cull again once the picture becomes clearer. Saying that, I also know of FTCH trainers that have three dogs one old and on it's way out, one that will be its understudy and then a puppy. they somehow manage to select a dog with good basic traits and then work with the dog in front of them to build the dog they want. To suggest that to have a successful working dog program would mean that you had to keep every puppy just in case would be madness, and would mean that show or working line kennels would only ever have adolescent dogs for sale, as every puppy needed to be kept.

[BlackJaq]

Maybe do a little more research on how Weims, GSPs and other HPR dogs actually hunt. They are never supposed to bring down a healthy animal, not even a pig.

I am a little confused why you are being so snide. I am not afraid that I cannot handle a working Wei, I am concerned that you may be wasting your money. As I said, this is up to you, but actually learning about something you would like to do is probably not going to be a bad thing. And neither is knowing what a dog you own was meant to do in the past (even if you no longer work your dog).

Not keeping all the pups on as a preferred option is exactly what I said, maybe you also need to read more carefully. Having other people raise and work pups still gives you a chance to see what kind of dog your breeding program produces.

I don't think you read my post properly at all and since you obviously do not want genuine advice, but would rather people telling you how great your idea is, I will no longer try to offer advice or insight.

[workcocker1983]

This thread has turned a bit mad. I think there are a lot of Cooks here and not many chefs.

There are plenty of good reference points on the matter of working spaniels in Australia and overseas. I suggest a few people do their research before mentioning completely stupid statements regarding topics that they know nothing about.

Lucky we all live in a free country and Luke GSP can do whatever he see fit with his own money. It takes balls to do something outside the square. Best of luck

[Salukifan]

This thread has turned a bit mad. I think there are a lot of Cooks here and not many chefs.

There are plenty of good reference points on the matter of working spaniels in Australia and overseas. I suggest a few people do their research before mentioning completely stupid statements regarding topics that they know nothing about.

Lucky we all live in a free country and Luke GSP can do whatever he see fit with his own money. It takes balls to do something outside the square. Best of luck

You have an golden opportunity here to educate a great many about working cockers. I suggest you grab it.

Would it kill you to come down off that high horse and tell people a bit about working cockers in this country? The cure for ignorance is education, not insults.

[Luke GSP]

Maybe do a little more research on how Weims, GSPs and other HPR dogs actually hunt. They are never supposed to bring down a healthy animal, not even a pig.

I am a little confused why you are being so snide. I am not afraid that I cannot handle a working Wei, I am concerned that you may be wasting your money. As I said, this is up to you, but actually learning about something you would like to do is probably not going to be a bad thing. And neither is knowing what a dog you own was meant to do in the past (even if you no longer work your dog).

Not keeping all the pups on as a preferred option is exactly what I said, maybe you also need to read more carefully. Having other people raise and work pups still gives you a chance to see what kind of dog your breeding program produces.

I don't think you read my post properly at all and since you obviously do not want genuine advice, but would rather people telling you how great your idea is, I will no longer try to offer advice or insight.

The only reason i mentioned bringing down an animal (as opposed to hunting, pointing or retrieving) was due to your statement about weims killing a fox in cover. This i was surprised at as working HPR breeds in my mind do exactly what it says on the tin hunt (find or track the game) point (show the position of the game and flush on command) retrieve (bring the dead game back to the hunter) you seemed to be intimating that "working weims" actually went in on the game. obviously any gundog is expected to locate and fetch injured game and hence if that is what you are refering to, i would suggest that you research gundog breeds in general. I can assure you that any true hunter would want their dog to locate, and retrieve any injured game a long time before it went for a dead one.

this is for two reasons

1, dispatch the game as quickly as possible

2, keepers don't get paid for runners that get away, they get paid for game in the game cart (from a commercial POV) whilst an animal can escape, you run the risk of not eating (from a traditional sense) same thing, different risk

other than pointing, what exactly do you feel that a HPR breed does that any gundog doesn't do?

did I not mention like minded and adding to existing bloodlines? would that not have covered off the fact that maybe i wasn't planning to have litters keep one and then sell the rest to families through gumtree? I'm not looking for people to tell me its a great idea. I am assuming that as a pure bred dog forum, there are probably people on here that have started, or been there at the early stages of developing a breed in Australia (possibly minority breeds) and i would have loved to hear from them, the challenges, costs and considerations that they learned through being part of the beginnings of a breed.

so genuine advice that i would have liked is

in regard to owning/breeding a non main stream breed

importing a dog from the UK for breeding (especially a titled show or working due to the fact that they will probably be older)

what you have done is question the "value" of importing them based on your perception of cost versus benefit in your eyes, and question whether it is wise to have or promote a working line breed based on "issues" that it would appear only affect "working" lines, despite our pounds seeming to portray a different picture.

As to human aggression and working dogs, all i can say is that any gundog breeder or trainer that I have known that was faced with a TRULY aggressive dog, whether that be DA or HA would not of had that dog around for very long, (im not talking about raising the alarm guarding property) I'm talking about true aggression.

[Salukifan]

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

[Bjelkier]

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

[Luke GSP]

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

I wouldn't either, long term, and if an suitable FTCH bitch became available with fewer litters, then obviously I would pursue that. however as per the ANKC code of ethics

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body

So although not desirable it would appear that it is not seen as out of the question.

[huski]

BlackJaq what was the purpose behind breeding Weimaraners to be "man sharp"?

[huski]

I have never met a working cocker but I would really like to! I was planning to get a WL Springer before fate had other ideas and I ended up with a Mal, but I loved the dogs I met and I still think they are really super.

[Luke GSP]

Huski,

this should give you an idea of what they can be like working

and as a family pet

[Bjelkier]

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

I wouldn't either, long term, and if an suitable FTCH bitch became available with fewer litters, then obviously I would pursue that. however as per the ANKC code of ethics

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body

So although not desirable it would appear that it is not seen as out of the question.

That's their rule, mine is different. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I'd also want veterinary documentation the bitch was still able to whelp a litter before she came out. Some girls don't cope well ad you could end up with an infertile girl.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Bjelkier

[Luke GSP]

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

I wouldn't either, long term, and if an suitable FTCH bitch became available with fewer litters, then obviously I would pursue that. however as per the ANKC code of ethics

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body

So although not desirable it would appear that it is not seen as out of the question.

That's their rule, mine is different. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I'd also want veterinary documentation the bitch was still able to whelp a litter before she came out. Some girls don't cope well ad you could end up with an infertile girl.

I don't disagree and good advice about the vet cert, as I said, it depends what is available at the time, if an suitable bitch is available That has less litter then obviously I would go that way. All depends what is available at the time.

[huski]

Thanks for sharing the vids Luke what spunky little dogs!

If you trust the breeder you are importing from and considering breeding isn't your primary concern I would be inclined to go with a younger bitch rather than one that is older with a few litters under her belt. Even if it isn't titled if you trust the breeder to send you a good dog, the genetics will be there for you to build on.

[JRG]

Huski said

"I have never met a working cocker but I would really like to!"

Just give me a call next time you are in Victoria and you can meet Alice

[Luke GSP]

Huski said

"I have never met a working cocker but I would really like to!"

Just give me a call next time you are in Victoria and you can meet Alice

Alice looks like a beauty JRG, I'm hoping to get the chance to meet her myself next time i'm in Vic. Thanks for those contacts as well, as they have been really helpful :)