Importing New Bloodline

[Luke GSP]

There are some working line Cockers in Perth, they just bred a litter, I believe the owners brought the dogs with them when they moved from the UK or a similar place perhaps.

They may even be the user who commented on the previous page from WA :laugh: They do retrieving and agility with them.

Yeah, I know, pretty sure i've spoken to them before :) to discuss this subject. If not then maybe there are two people breeding Working cockers in WA? Sounds like a revolution :laugh:

[Luke GSP]

We are contacted via a club ,These are dogs brought as pets only & are unable to satisfy there needs .

Most liked the idea of less coat etc etc but seem to not understand that hard core working lines in some breeds don't suit the average Joe in a pet role unless the owners are extremely dedicated to meet those needs .Whether this was explained to them im not sure but in the end the dogs where to busy for what they expected from a Cocker ,some had owned Cockers before

Isn't that the story the world over? misinformed potential owner becomes an owner, bundle of cuteness becomes furry demon, house gets destroyed, owner gets rid of dog! My Dad and Sister worked in rescue in the UK in an area that was rural so i'm reasonably aware of working bred dogs versus pet/show lines issues. Pretty sure that if you went round the pounds in Australia though, you'd be hard pressed to find a working line dog. Lots of BYB bred animals though, genetic line and traits are different, sadly the story and outcome is the same

[JRG]

"What's the difference between a field spaniel and field bred cocker spaniel?"

Leah82 - chalk and cheese. Same colours and there the likeness ends.

[mita]

Just a detour for some celebrity stuff. I heard that Lupo, Prince William & his wife Catherine's dog, is a working line cocker spaniel.

Only reference I could find quickly:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10254934/Sorry-Lupo-unlike-Prince-George-youre-not-fourth-in-line-to-the-throne.html

AND a caution from the UK Kennel Club that they're sure William & Catherine researched well the nature of a working line cocker... but people shouldn't just copy their choice, without doing their own research. Like what showdog posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2111626/Kennel-Club-fear-abandoned-dogs-Kate-Middletons-Duchess-Effect-sees-spaniels-sales-soar.html

Edited December 18, 2013 by mita

[Luke GSP]

Just a detour for some celebrity stuff. I heard that Lupo, Prince William & his wife Catherine's dog, is a working line cocker spaniel.

Only reference I could find quickly:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10254934/Sorry-Lupo-unlike-Prince-George-youre-not-fourth-in-line-to-the-throne.html

AND a caution from the UK Kennel Club that they're sure William & Catherine researched well the nature of a working line cocker... but people shouldn't just copy their choice, without doing their own research. Like what showdog posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2111626/Kennel-Club-fear-abandoned-dogs-Kate-Middletons-Duchess-Effect-sees-spaniels-sales-soar.html

He looks working line to me :) in reference to the second article. It's no different to someone buying a powerful breed dog because a rapper has one and then wonders why it destroys everything and they have no control physical or otherwise over the animal. If you train an animal correctly with traits, in mind and tailor the training to the dog in front of you(not breed) in question, chances are you will have a successful result, and vice versa.

Sadly just another case of the stupidity of humans causing issues for an animal.

[mita]

Agree with what you said, Luke.

Isn't Lupo a lovely little dog :) ... sure can see the appeal of a working line cocker, for some people. I loved that pic of him sniffing along the ground.

As you say, people need to research the requirements that go with the breed.... which is the same in considering other breeds as well.

Edited December 18, 2013 by mita

[BlackJaq]

This is part of the reason I am so reluctant to get into breeding working Weimaraners. I am kind of in doubt that there will be enough suitable homes that would be available... I guess it might be worthwhile speaking to the other breeders already doing it now and finding out if they have any trouble placing all their pups and how many actually go on to working homes and how many end up in pet homes.

I guess having only 5 pups per litter makes things a little easier, 10+ would be a different story for certain.

[Luke GSP]

This is part of the reason I am so reluctant to get into breeding working Weimaraners. I am kind of in doubt that there will be enough suitable homes that would be available... I guess it might be worthwhile speaking to the other breeders already doing it now and finding out if they have any trouble placing all their pups and how many actually go on to working homes and how many end up in pet homes.

I guess having only 5 pups per litter makes things a little easier, 10+ would be a different story for certain.

I would think that there would be people within the field trial world that would be interested in one? I suppose it is dependent on whether you were thinking of doing it so that you had the dogs yourself, and the ones you would sell would be the pups that were "surplus" to requirements due to showing less desirable traits. Much the same as a show home moving dogs along that were not show quality on a limited register.And looking at the initial cost of starting your blood line (30-60K depending on cost of importation, and number of dogs you were looking to import to start?) either as a cost to get what YOU want, or as an investment that you are looking to make a "return" on? If the later then I think you would need to question the idea as obviously return is governed by demand. If the previous I would find it improbable that in a country of 20+ million people that there were not 2-4 people that would like a quality working line puppy from periodic breedings?

I think that it also requires some realization that just because a working line is in an animals blood, it doesn't mean that it will be a nutter and never stop moving. That is why i am looking at the possibility of titled dogs, I know they are good (expensive, compared to a FTCH line puppy) but you know that the dog can and is producing the goods. Much the same as when you had a litter, you would select the puppies with the best chance of becoming what you want them to be (probably reasonably bold, inquisitive and high drive puppies)where the ones that were not as strong in those traits would be the ones that you were looking to move on, which in reality would mean that they are probably more suited to a working home, ergo a pet home with people that like an energetic dog. :) As long as you sold them as working line dogs that require exercise and stimulation I don't see that you would have any further issues than any other breeder of energetic breeds. My family come from an area in the UK where pretty much every dog is from a working line (keepers dogs) and yet every dog is not a trained gundog. lots of them are pets and lots of them are very happy dogs.

[CrazyCresties]

I think that it also requires some realization that just because a working line is in an animals blood, it doesn't mean that it will be a nutter and never stop moving.

Yes! There's no doubt people need to be fully aware of what a 'working type' is, but the majority of friends who had them in Scotland had them as pets with few issues. Although over there we had much more dog friendly space for them to exercise on, beaches and forests etc. We would often meet up in the forest with 15-20 spaniels, a greyhound and two cresties :laugh:

Fargo was so laid back indoors, but in top gear once outside, and the tail never stopped wagging as in this video :laugh:

[BlackJaq]

This is part of the reason I am so reluctant to get into breeding working Weimaraners. I am kind of in doubt that there will be enough suitable homes that would be available... I guess it might be worthwhile speaking to the other breeders already doing it now and finding out if they have any trouble placing all their pups and how many actually go on to working homes and how many end up in pet homes.

I guess having only 5 pups per litter makes things a little easier, 10+ would be a different story for certain.

I would think that there would be people within the field trial world that would be interested in one? I suppose it is dependent on whether you were thinking of doing it so that you had the dogs yourself, and the ones you would sell would be the pups that were "surplus" to requirements due to showing less desirable traits. Much the same as a show home moving dogs along that were not show quality on a limited register.And looking at the initial cost of starting your blood line (30-60K depending on cost of importation, and number of dogs you were looking to import to start?) either as a cost to get what YOU want, or as an investment that you are looking to make a "return" on? If the later then I think you would need to question the idea as obviously return is governed by demand. If the previous I would find it improbable that in a country of 20+ million people that there were not 2-4 people that would like a quality working line puppy from periodic breedings?

I think that it also requires some realization that just because a working line is in an animals blood, it doesn't mean that it will be a nutter and never stop moving. That is why i am looking at the possibility of titled dogs, I know they are good (expensive, compared to a FTCH line puppy) but you know that the dog can and is producing the goods. Much the same as when you had a litter, you would select the puppies with the best chance of becoming what you want them to be (probably reasonably bold, inquisitive and high drive puppies)where the ones that were not as strong in those traits would be the ones that you were looking to move on, which in reality would mean that they are probably more suited to a working home, ergo a pet home with people that like an energetic dog. :) As long as you sold them as working line dogs that require exercise and stimulation I don't see that you would have any further issues than any other breeder of energetic breeds. My family come from an area in the UK where pretty much every dog is from a working line (keepers dogs) and yet every dog is not a trained gundog. lots of them are pets and lots of them are very happy dogs.

I am going to assume that your post was directed at working Cockers, not working Weis? If not, please correct me :)

I don't think a line will ever be established sustainably if you plan on keeping all the "good" dogs yourself. The number of dogs needed would simply be too great for any one person to not only keep, but also work them successfully. Other handlers would be needed in any case to continue.

Determining working and show quality are kind of two different things as well. I think it would take longer to be certain of a dog's working ability than it does to determine the show quality, therefore dogs would need to be kept on for a year or two at the least. I cannot imagine anybody would be able to keep on and work half a litter (3 or more pups) unless their days have a lot more hours than mine lol

I also think that anybody who would consider this a monetary investment probably has no idea. Pups need to be priced so that puppy buyers can actually be found, so recovering the kind of outlay you are proposing is, at best, unrealistic. I would assume that anybody who is serious about this kind of project would be doing it because this is their passion, not because they hope to earn back their money.

As I said, I do not know much about Cockers, but from the way people are talking here they might not actually have that much trouble fitting into a non working home, unlike sharper breeds. So it would be up to the breeder to determine whether pups placed in pet homes would simply be a waste of good genes or not. I guess the aim of a successful performance breeder should be to breed as few duds needing pet homes as possible, but this goal might need to be compromised on, if sufficient working homes were not available. Which is another reason I am so reluctant in the pursuit of my own importation and working line establishment.

Again, I am going to assume that you are referring to Cockers as "nuttiness" and high activity levels are not my concern when contemplating working Weis in pet homes.

Since I am totally lacking any experience with Cockers, regardless of working or pet breeding, I don't really have any response.

However, I would think that a bitch that was not worn out breeding-wise would be a better choice for importation, as you will likely get more pups in return for your "investment"? Others have brought good arguments as to why a bitch with 4 previous litters might not be the best choice for importation.

Either way, if a titled bitch produced several puppies in a litter that were clearly not working material then I would seriously doubt the bitch's quality. I realize that for Police K9s, the rate of unsuitable dogs is extremely high, however, for hunting dogs the suitable dogs should generally outnumber the unsuitable ones greatly.

I don't think puppy selection would be as easy as you are imagining at this moment (unless puppies will need to be culled for unsuitable markings, miscolouration etc, which all become obvious very quickly with visual inspection). Ideally, all pups should be started and worked (possibly with several handlers as a single handler will never be able to bring on an entire litter properly) and the next breeding animals should be chosen by performance at an appropriate age, rather than taking a blind guess when they are young puppies and obviously not working at all yet.

This is the reason why I am so concerned about lack of working homes, as choosing puppies to keep on and breed with is pretty much pointless when you are looking at breeding for performance, instead of appearance.

I think there is a huge difference between "working line" and "high energy breed" due to the reasons I have outlined above. As a breeder of performance dogs, it is actually of concern to you how your puppies perform. As a breeder of a high energy breed, you already know that pretty much all your puppies will be high energy, no future breed choice selection depends on their development.

Any breeder should be concerned with their puppies' placement and future happiness. That does not mean that happy puppies = a good breeding program for a performance breeder. Completely untalented puppies can be just as happy as excellent working puppies. I guess it comes down to how serious you are for them to be performance dogs, or whether you are just looking to breed a Cocker of a certain appearance and energy level (in which case it is not a working line you are breeding, but rather a type). Which is why I said a lot depends on your personal goals :)

Edited December 19, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Leah82]

unlike sharper breeds

OT I know.

I don't like the insinuation that cockers are not very intelligent dogs, I've heard it a lot but from my experience this is not the case.

Cockers are also found in the same group as Weimaraners and Collies in the list of dog breed intelligence being excellent working dogs.

Yes, they take a long time to mature

Yes, they can be very excitable which makes it hard for them to concentrate

and yes they often require an intensive to work

but they are far from dumb

[Salukifan]

A dog as small as a working Cocker might find some Australian trialing terrain hard going.

Outside of Retrieving Trials, how many opportunities are there to trial a Cocker here??

Any reason why a working Springer won't suit? They are already established here. If working Cockers haven't found a footing here, you have to ask yourself why.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Salukifan]

unlike sharper breeds

OT I know.

I don't like the insinuation that cockers are not very intelligent dogs, I've heard it a lot but from my experience this is not the case.

Cockers are also found in the same group as Weimaraners and Collies in the list of dog breed intelligence being excellent working dogs.

Yes, they take a long time to mature

Yes, they can be very excitable which makes it hard for them to concentrate

and yes they often require an intensive to work

but they are far from dumb

Generally "sharpness" in reference to a working gundog refers to how hard it's nature is (and potentially to levels of aggression) not how smart it is. A sharp dog is more volatile, but not necessarily brighter.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Leah82]

unlike sharper breeds

OT I know.

I don't like the insinuation that cockers are not very intelligent dogs, I've heard it a lot but from my experience this is not the case.

Cockers are also found in the same group as Weimaraners and Collies in the list of dog breed intelligence being excellent working dogs.

Yes, they take a long time to mature

Yes, they can be very excitable which makes it hard for them to concentrate

and yes they often require an intensive to work

but they are far from dumb

Generally "sharpness" in reference to a working gundog refers to how hard it's nature is (and potentially to levels of aggression) not how smart it is. A sharp dog is more volatile, but not necessarily smarter.

My bad :) it gets my goat when I feel the lovely cocker is being misrepresented :p

volatile the cocker is definitely not.

[Luke GSP]

A dog as small as a working Cocker might find some Australian trialing terrain hard going.

Outside of Retrieving Trials, how many opportunities are there to trial a Cocker here??

Any reason why a working Springer won't suit? They are already established here.

Have you ever been to a rough shoot in the UK? I've seen spanners of all types cover terrain that i wouldn't want to cover on foot, let alone running with a pheasant that is several times bigger than my head, in my mouth. :) Cockers were viewed in a similar way in the UK up until recently when people have realised that the dogs physical size is far outweighed by its work ethic. I know people that use them for waterfowling, not talking ducks, i'm talking Geese, and they still work on.

You are correct in regard to springers, and I am in touch with several working line breeders over here for springers haven't discounted them by any means, but I would still want to get my hands on a working Cocker as well. :) I suppose as well that I am not someone that tends to take the easy route (some might say stubborn :laugh: ) but the way I look at it is that any of the magnificent dogs that are in Australia were at some point in the same position as the working cocker. There are a very limited number of people here that have them and maybe by getting some, I might be able to help in that establishment? Everything starts from something small.

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

[Salukifan]

A dog as small as a working Cocker might find some Australian trialing terrain hard going.

Outside of Retrieving Trials, how many opportunities are there to trial a Cocker here??

Any reason why a working Springer won't suit? They are already established here.

Have you ever been to a rough shoot in the UK? I've seen spanners of all types cover terrain that i wouldn't want to cover on foot, let alone running with a pheasant that is several times bigger than my head, in my mouth. :) Cockers were viewed in a similar way in the UK up until recently when people have realised that the dogs physical size is far outweighed by its work ethic. I know people that use them for waterfowling, not talking ducks, i'm talking Geese, and they still work on.

You are correct in regard to springers, and I am in touch with several working line breeders over here for springers haven't discounted them by any means, but I would still want to get my hands on a working Cocker as well. :) I suppose as well that I am not someone that tends to take the easy route (some might say stubborn :laugh: ) but the way I look at it is that any of the magnificent dogs that are in Australia were at some point in the same position as the working cocker. There are a very limited number of people here that have them and maybe by getting some, I might be able to help in that establishment? Everything starts from something small.

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

I just wonder how a Cocker is going to handle the kind of water retrieving trial dogs get here - most are far larger than the Cocker. How can you handle a dog that can't see you above the height of the grass? I just can't see them as being competitive in a sport dominated by Labradors and the occasional GSP.

I don't recall saying anything about working Weims at all, negative or otherwisel.

Good luck with expecting people to know what they are getting into. Reality has a bad habit of rearing its head and what people perceive they can handle may not be reality.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Luke GSP]

A dog as small as a working Cocker might find some Australian trialing terrain hard going.

Outside of Retrieving Trials, how many opportunities are there to trial a Cocker here??

Any reason why a working Springer won't suit? They are already established here.

Have you ever been to a rough shoot in the UK? I've seen spanners of all types cover terrain that i wouldn't want to cover on foot, let alone running with a pheasant that is several times bigger than my head, in my mouth. :) Cockers were viewed in a similar way in the UK up until recently when people have realised that the dogs physical size is far outweighed by its work ethic. I know people that use them for waterfowling, not talking ducks, i'm talking Geese, and they still work on.

You are correct in regard to springers, and I am in touch with several working line breeders over here for springers haven't discounted them by any means, but I would still want to get my hands on a working Cocker as well. :) I suppose as well that I am not someone that tends to take the easy route (some might say stubborn :laugh: ) but the way I look at it is that any of the magnificent dogs that are in Australia were at some point in the same position as the working cocker. There are a very limited number of people here that have them and maybe by getting some, I might be able to help in that establishment? Everything starts from something small.

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

I just wonder how a Cocker is going to handle the kind of water retrieving trial dogs get here - most are far larger than the Cocker.

I don't recall saying anything about working Weims at all, negative or otherwisel.

Good luck with expecting people to know what they are getting into. Reality has a bad habit of rearing its head and what people perceive they can handle may not be reality.

The Weims was for Blackjaq :)

In regard to people having an idea, as you said, there are working Springer lines already here, they seem to have no greater issue with puppies going to homes than any other breed, (unless there is a disproportionate amount of working line spaniels in all the dog pounds that I don't know of? ) so I don't see why a working cocker would be so different a prospect? What exactly do you think that a working line cocker does that is going to create a greater issue than any other type of dog, working line or not, if purchased by an uninformed owner? Assuming that there would be an uninformed owner? Not sure why one would seek out WORKING line cocker in particular rather than any one of the myriad of breeds and puppies available on a much wider basis?

The biggest difference for me would be that in reality the people interested, and that would be involved are a very small group, who are all interested in having a level of diversity to be able to draw from, when you look at the DOL adverts, there are plenty of dog breeds that require "management" (in fact you could argue that all breeds require a level of management if they are to be brought up to be good canine citizens)that have permanent puppies available 365 days a year from multiple different breeders. Most of which, I would assume are limited register pups being sold on as the breeder didn't feel that they were of good enough confirmation. Sorry for being thick, but I honestly cannot see how limited breeding of a niche working line would cause such a massive issue?

[Luke GSP]

How can you handle a dog that can't see you above the height of the grass? I just can't see them as being competitive in a sport dominated by Labradors and the occasional GSP.

Much the same as you would handle it once it is behind a stone wall, in a pea field, deep bracken, inside a hedge, bramble or running down a tidal gully. :) Sometimes it's not about competing and measuring yourself or your dog against others, sometimes it's about the pure pleasure of working with an animal that you appreciate. As you said, it is a sport dominated by labs, with that in mind, why do people bother with a GSP or any other breed? Keep in mind that trialling is not my (personal) dream for me and said dogs, it may happen, but it is not my ultimate aim. But given the choice of shooting over such a dog in the "rough" compared to a "competition" the later would pale for me personally.

[Luke GSP]

In regard to working with water, heres a quick video of one in water. I'd be happy with that :)

[BlackJaq]

(...)

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

The Weims was for Blackjaq :)

In regard to people having an idea, as you said, there are working Springer lines already here, they seem to have no greater issue with puppies going to homes than any other breed, (unless there is a disproportionate amount of working line spaniels in all the dog pounds that I don't know of? ) so I don't see why a working cocker would be so different a prospect? What exactly do you think that a working line cocker does that is going to create a greater issue than any other type of dog, working line or not, if purchased by an uninformed owner? Assuming that there would be an uninformed owner? Not sure why one would seek out WORKING line cocker in particular rather than any one of the myriad of breeds and puppies available on a much wider basis?

The biggest difference for me would be that in reality the people interested, and that would be involved are a very small group, who are all interested in having a level of diversity to be able to draw from, when you look at the DOL adverts, there are plenty of dog breeds that require "management" (in fact you could argue that all breeds require a level of management if they are to be brought up to be good canine citizens)that have permanent puppies available 365 days a year from multiple different breeders. Most of which, I would assume are limited register pups being sold on as the breeder didn't feel that they were of good enough confirmation. Sorry for being thick, but I honestly cannot see how limited breeding of a niche working line would cause such a massive issue?

Not sure if this was all addressed at me & Weims but basically, on top of the strong prey drive, the performance bred Weim has man sharpness and a very strong guarding instinct. This can translate to issues with aggression toward other dogs, animals in general, humans and, most importantly (in my opinion) their own handler. Many Weims are reported to have aggression issues (most issues are simply caused by inept owners and are not genuinely to be attributed to the dog being aggressive). Would you recommend a man sharp working line GSD to the average pet home?

I am not as familiar with GSPs as I am with Weims but many people seem to have similar issues here. They are strong, sharp breeds under pet/show conditions, but genuine working lines encourage many of these traits (especially game and predator sharpness), so often it is only matter of time until the issues I have listed above appear in pet homes, since the dogs generally do not receive enough work and owners are often unprepared/ignorant. Event those who believe they are aware often still have trouble dealing with issues when and if they arise.

I know that some people in Australia claim to breed for hunting ability, but unless the dogs are actually worked and compared to other dogs doing the same work, there can be no genuine selection for the traits necessary for active hunting duties. Of course many dogs do ok at field trials etc in spite of this, but field trials are not necessarily a representation of genuine hunting conditions.

Basically I am afraid of Weims falling under DD dog laws due to the working bred dogs' propensity to resort to aggression when under managed, under exercised or under stimulated. That does not mean I find any of these traits bad. Not at all, they are very necessary for humane hunting with the dog (as the dog has to be willing and able to quickly catch and kill injured game and pest animals, even in difficult or uncomfortable terrain). Are they negative for a pet home? Probably yes.

Working bred GSPs are not bred for man sharpness in their country of origin and should not be bred for it elsewhere. However, GSPs (especially working lines) are still prone to many of the same issues as I have listed above, as most people experienced with the breed will know (not saying you are not, but I have to wonder why you seem to be unaware of the issues presented by working bred HPR dogs in pet homes).

Weimaraner, GSPs etc already require a huge amount of management from their handlers, I am reluctant to bring in dogs whose management requirements would be even higher than what is already here and already causing trouble for a lot of owners, well informed or otherwise.

As I said, this would probably not be an issue for Cockers (unless suffering from Cocker rage haha), as Cockers are bred for a totally different style of work.

And no Leah82, "sharpness" does not at all refer to intelligence (not sure why you would think so), it refers to potential aggression levels in various situations (i.e. facing a human, facing a fox, facing a shot animal on the move etc) and the willingness to take on that situation, regardless of discomfort (i.e. chasing an injured fox into blackberries, catching and killing the fox in thorny cover) is generally referred to as "being hard" in European countries (not sure how this would best translate into English?)

Basically, I am not at all concerned that your working line Cocker puppies will wreak havoc in their pet homes, I simply cannot see the point in importing a spent bitch and then homing the few pups you would be likely to get into pet homes, after you went to all that expense and effort to get them in the first place. You cannot accurately assess the offspring's working ability (i.e. the success of your breeding program) if they are in pet homes (i.e. not working).

You really cannot compare working Cockers and working Weis (or even GSPs), it's apples and oranges, really

I think maybe you should do a little more research into breeding working line dogs to make sure you are not disappointed by the results of this exercise. You are looking to spend a lot of money here and it would be a shame if nothing useful came of it :)

Edited December 19, 2013 by BlackJaq