Importing New Bloodline

[Luke GSP]

Hi All,

I am finding myself more and more interested in working line Cocker Spaniels and although several years in the future, I am considering that for my next dog I might try and import a titled (Field trial) Coccker bith from the UK. I believe that the maximum litter over there is for 4 litters from one bitch and hence after that the dog cannot generate any further income and hence is not as desireable to keep hold of. My thoughts were to import a dog that was titled but had hit that limit with the aim of bringing her in and having one maybe two litters max, then retiring her and keeping her as a pet. I may also bring a similar Dog in from the UK so that they would be a mating pair. The aim of this being

1, I think they would be awesome dogs to own

2, They would be amazing to work with

3, It would add a further working bloodline (from what I can see there are very few working line cocker breeders in AUS currently)

Thoughts? anyone have any experience in these matters and wishing to advise?

Thanks in advance for any advice offered

Edited December 18, 2013 by Luke GSP

[Leah82]

I might be interesting in purchasing such a dog in the future :) although we're probably looking at 10 years down the track.

What's the difference between a field spaniel and field bred cocker spaniel?

From the descriptions and pictures I've found they're both slightly larger than a show cocker, ears are higher up and they have less feathering.

[BlackJaq]

Are you looking to work the dog or just use it to breed and keep it as a pet?

Personally I would like to import a titled Weimaraner bitch (preferably from Germany) but I have my doubts as to the number of pups I could place in genuine working homes. Importing a working dog and then placing pups in pet homes kind of defeats the purpose for me. Spaniels, however, being not as sharp, would probably do a lot better in a pet home if the owners were dedicated enough to exercise and stimulate the dog sufficiently. But again, I kind of have to wonder if it is worth the while if field bred working pups end up going to pet homes, however good the pet home may be.

I guess your personal goals are a big deciding factor here? I don't know too much about Spaniels so have no clue as to litter size etc, but I do believe they are still used in working roles much more widely than many of the other gun dog breeds (mostly talking HPR breeds here, rather than retrievers).

Are you working your current dog(s)? Will you be planning to keep pups on to work? What kind of breed community support is there to help continue the line and work your pups (if that is what you want them to do)?

Edited December 18, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Salukifan]

You might want to look to New Zealand first. I hear that there are working lines there.

[Luke GSP]

Are you looking to work the dog or just use it to breed and keep it as a pet?

Personally I would like to import a titled Weimaraner bitch (preferably from Germany) but I have my doubts as to the number of pups I could place in genuine working homes. Importing a working dog and then placing pups in pet homes kind of defeats the purpose for me. Spaniels, however, being not as sharp, would probably do a lot better in a pet home if the owners were dedicated enough to exercise and stimulate the dog sufficiently. But again, I kind of have to wonder if it is worth the while if field bred working pups end up going to pet homes, however good the pet home may be.

I guess your personal goals are a big deciding factor here? I don't know too much about Spaniels so have no clue as to litter size etc, but I do believe they are still used in working roles much more widely than many of the other gun dog breeds (mostly talking HPR breeds here, rather than retrievers).

Are you working your current dog(s)? Will you be planning to keep pups on to work? What kind of breed community support is there to help continue the line and work your pups (if that is what you want them to do)?

Fundamentally, I would be planning to possibly trial the parents and then keep pups from the litters to train up myself (for both shooting and possibly field trials) then move the remaining pups to either working or agility homes. From there it would depend on the "market". I have spoken to one of the few breeders that already has working line cockers in Australia and he has a great mix of lines in his kennel, but obviously as the community is very small, adding the possibility of some extra lines in should/could enable some wider choices.

Cockers have gained a huge amount of traction in the UK as utility gundogs (they were viewed as mental and very hard to train historically) but that has changed a lot in recent times and there are some beautiful, hard working cockers out there. (they are still a bit mental but that's spanners in general IMO :laugh: ) Check out some of the footage from cocker spaniel championship trials, some of these dogs have a work ethic that is way bigger than their physical size.

average litter is 5 IME

At this stage, it is purely a thought, i'm not interested in becoming a BYB to try and make money, I have a job for that :), I used to shoot (rough and driven) in the UK and would like to continue as best I can over here. My rationale was/is purely to get hold of some awesome dogs for me, and perhaps make them available for any like minded individuals that would like to own a pocket rocket.

[Luke GSP]

You might want to look to New Zealand first. I hear that there are working lines there.

I have also heard this, but wasn't sure if they were still there as I couldn't find much info? I also don't know how old a line they are/were, as I believe that a lot of the current UK lines are supposed to be a lot less "stubborn or mental" and a lot more biddable than cockers "were". Not discounting the idea though, so if anyone has any info please send it through.

[Airedaler]

I think if the bitch has already had 4 litters, expecting her to have another two is a big ask for me. I would assume to have had 4 litters she is going to be around the age of 5 or 6. But perhaps that is just me.

[cowanbree]

Personally my maximum litters is 3 although if I had no other options and the bitch was under 6years I might consider a 4th. Can't imagine having 6 litters from a bitch and it would be very risky anyhow. In my experience the older a bitch is the less puppies they have and the greater likelihood there will be issues.

[Dogsfevr]

We get far to many calls to rehome working Cockers .

[The Spotted Devil]

I might be interesting in purchasing such a dog in the future :) although we're probably looking at 10 years down the track.

What's the difference between a field spaniel and field bred cocker spaniel?

From the descriptions and pictures I've found they're both slightly larger than a show cocker, ears are higher up and they have less feathering.

Field bred cockers are tiny and crazy! Very busy little workers but are surprisingly different from the field bred Springers considering they originated from the same litters. Their differences lie less in their looks than in the way they work - although they certainly look different (less coat, shorter ear leather like the field bred Springers) there is more variability as the emphasis is on work. I saw some amazing working cockers at a Spaniel Hunt test in the US. I'm not sure about Field Spaniels - I don't know any here that are working dogs - much more show focused I think.

If you want a dog to work, I would get as much exposure living with, training and working one before committing to importing or even breeding them. And I would suggest working Spaniels in gundog trials or rough hunting to really understand how talented they are - obedience and agility are great but don't rely as much on genetics. Even in retrieving trials that take a lot of control, I've learned so much by watching Em work the ground - quartering, using the wind, persistence etc. I understand how differently she works from other gundog breeds - strengths and weaknesses. The Springers really suit my personality and my home but they may be too soft for some - they don't like repetition and you can crush their spirit easily. I've not yet worked out the Cockers, appealing as they are - busy, busy, busy!!!

Edited December 18, 2013 by The Spotted Devil

[Luke GSP]

We get far to many calls to rehome working Cockers .

Hey Showdog,

Where are you based? Are the rehomes from pet homes that brought one by mistake or shooting homes that failed to adjust to the cockers?

Believe me, I am under no illusion as to working breeds, I used to shoot over spaniels in the UK and actually had organised to buy two already trained and adult dogs before coming to Australia, but when we found out about the process to get them out here (ten years ago) we decided it would be unfair to put the dog through that, especially as when we arrived, we had to organise our own living arrangements and schooling for the non fur kids.

As I said, i am looking a few years forward as currently I already have two GSP's and an English cocker and I probably need to bide my time a little before suggesting any more additions to the wife. :laugh:

[Luke GSP]

If you want a dog to work, I would get as much exposure living with, training and working one before committing to importing or even breeding them. And I would suggest working Spaniels in gundog trials or rough hunting to really understand how talented they are - obedience and agility are great but don't rely as much on genetics. Even in retrieving trials that take a lot of control, I've learned so much by watching Em work the ground - quartering, using the wind, persistence etc. I understand how differently she works from other gundog breeds - strengths and weaknesses. The Springers really suit my personality and my home but they may be too soft for some - they don't like repetition and you can crush their spirit easily. I've not yet worked out the Cockers, appealing as they are - busy, busy, busy!!!

Believe me I would love the opportunity to gain exposure to working cockers here, but there simply aren't enough to gain that exposure. I'm not getting any younger either and want my next dog to be something a bit special, (not that they aren't all special to their owners)

[workcocker1983]

We get far to many calls to rehome working Cockers .

How many? Several a month? Or one a year? Seems a bit odd they would ring you and not the breed club.

[CrazyCresties]

Before moving over here I was the proud owner of a working type cocker - he was such an awesome dog!

I met a wide variety of workers while living in Scotland, from the small wiry 'pocket rockets', to the larger solid ones like my Fargo. They come in such a wide range of temperaments too, from the non-stop crazies, to ones that do have an 'off' switch :laugh: A common factor seemed to be the endless enthusiasm and keenness.

I was lucky with Fargo, I got him at 15 weeks and was pretty naive about dog ownership, but had moved to the countryside in Scotland and wanted a dog He was a perfect puppy, pretty much toilet trained from the word go, well socialised and a perfect temperament. He grew into a gorgeous boy and we had so much fun together.

He grew from this...

to this

More pics here with a variety of hair styles :laugh:

http://s189.photobucket.com/user/screamingswifts/slideshow/Fargo

This is a large cocker forum in the UK that may be useful for you. http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/

Good luck Luke, they are fantastic dogs :)

[The Spotted Devil]

If you've shot over them you'll have a fair understanding then! Have fun and good luck Luke - why not chat to your contact about NZ lines...I've heard there are some decent ones but don't know anything more specific.

[Luke GSP]

Before moving over here I was the proud owner of a working type cocker - he was such an awesome dog!

I met a wide variety of workers while living in Scotland, from the small wiry 'pocket rockets', to the larger solid ones like my Fargo. They come in such a wide range of temperaments too, from the non-stop crazies, to ones that do have an 'off' switch :laugh: A common factor seemed to be the endless enthusiasm and keenness.

I was lucky with Fargo, I got him at 15 weeks and was pretty naive about dog ownership, but had moved to the countryside in Scotland and wanted a dog He was a perfect puppy, pretty much toilet trained from the word go, well socialised and a perfect temperament. He grew into a gorgeous boy and we had so much fun together.

He grew from this...

to this

More pics here with a variety of hair styles :laugh:

http://s189.photobucket.com/user/screamingswifts/slideshow/Fargo

This is a large cocker forum in the UK that may be useful for you. http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/

Good luck Luke, they are fantastic dogs :)

Sounds and looks like a great dog, I think working cockers are one of those breeds that really flourishes in partnership with their handler, your not going to "make" them do anything, but once you've got them bonded to you they'll do everything. :) Not sure how many people here have seen the cocker spaniels DVD series from Hawcroft kennels or Placeboard training from from the openshaws at Rytex kennels, but to watch the DVD's is a very pleasurable experience, and not because they only show you the good bits, they show you the bad and how they correct it, whilst continuing to garner the relationship. Anyone that has shot over or worked with gundogs, who watches those DVD's without thinking "I need to get me one of those" has had their heart frozen from to many waterfowling sessions. :laugh:

[Luke GSP]

If you've shot over them you'll have a fair understanding then! Have fun and good luck Luke - why not chat to your contact about NZ lines...I've heard there are some decent ones but don't know anything more specific.

TSD, As this is a way off (assuming I don't want to gain a spaniel and lose a wife :laugh: ) I plan to do plenty of research before taking any plunge. For instance, I am making inroads in to shooting opportunities in NSW and plan this year to attend some Aussie field trials. Not sure yet whether trialing is for me, but happy to have a look and go from there, either way I am sure that I will meet some great people and dogs along the way.

[pie]

There are some working line Cockers in Perth, they just bred a litter, I believe the owners brought the dogs with them when they moved from the UK or a similar place perhaps.

They may even be the user who commented on the previous page from WA :laugh: They do retrieving and agility with them.

[Dogsfevr]

.

Hey Showdog,

Where are you based? Are the rehomes from pet homes that brought one by mistake or shooting homes that failed to adjust to the cockers?

We are contacted via a club ,These are dogs brought as pets only & are unable to satisfy there needs .

Most liked the idea of less coat etc etc but seem to not understand that hard core working lines in some breeds don't suit the average Joe in a pet role unless the owners are extremely dedicated to meet those needs .Whether this was explained to them im not sure but in the end the dogs where to busy for what they expected from a Cocker ,some had owned Cockers before

[The Spotted Devil]

Lol - just get one the same colour....I tell Mr TSD that's what I'm going to do and he'll never notice! Yes, trialling is not for everyone and you don't need titles to prove a good dog particularly if you shoot over them. I couldn't shoot the broad side of a barn so prefer trialling :) Some states also have a lot of restrictions so the only option is trialling too.