Is This 'right' Or 'ethical' For A Breeder To Do..

[Roova]

I work with a nice guy who bought a purebred Weimeraner as a pet a few years back from a registered breeder. He doesn't show and isnt involved with that side of things at all.

I've seen photos of his boy over the years and he's a nice looking dog. (I wouldn't know if he matches the standard or not though). I noticed a while back he was entire and I asked him if there was some reason he didn't desex him. He told me the breeder had asked him to keep the dog entire in case she wanted to use him for breeding in the future. He was quite chuffed to think this so had happily kept him entire.

Fast forward to today and he showed me a phone message with a photo of two newborn puppies, both with coloured collars on. He said his dog has now been used twice as a stud, once for the breeder and once for a friend of theirs. The breeder mentioned a stud fee but not how much or when it would be paid.

Along with the phone message it was mentioned how much it had cost the breeder for this litter because of a caesarian, vet costs and a still birth along with only two puppies. Im not sure if she wants him to say don't worry about a stud fee?

Also is it normal to coloured code two puppies? Im suspicious there were more but she wants him to think there were only two. I asked if she was keeping one for showing but he said no, they're for sale. He then said 'how can she keep every puppy from every litter she has, she'd be over-run by dogs!'.

I also asked him if his boy had been tested or x-rayed for any genetic problems but he said no, I didn't know I had to. (In saying this are there even recommended tests for Weimeraners?)

I suspect Im being too cynical in thinking this guy is being used for his good, and dare I say naive and trusting nature?

Does this situation go against what a registered breeder might normally suggest to a pet owner, or is it all down to individual ethics?

[Kirislin]

I think it would be normal to colour code them with collars because it could be hard to tell them apart.

As to the rest I dont know.

[Dory the Doted One]

Perphaps the breeder kept the papers and he is registered to the breeders name still, for breeding purposes?

[Diva]

I don't know what health tests are needed for Weis, apart from that I don't see an issue. Might be suss, might be entirely legit, nothing in your story to indicate either really, except the guy needs to clarify the rules of engagement.

[BlackJaq]

I would expect HD testing at the very least but I don't actually think it is a requirement(I am not a breeder though, so don't quote me on that)

They are generally said to be a pretty healthy breed although I know of a few issues that seem to be becoming more common. None of those have a test though as far as I know.

If the puppies are the same sex it can be pretty much impossible to tell them apart without ID (collar, chip etc) and either way, if I were the breeder I would tag them anyway to make sure vet work, chip numbers, worming etc do not get confused. If you keep a folder each or whatever, clearly stating colour, then you can quickly and accurately note down weight, worming and vac details and all the other stuff breeders should keep records of.

Since I don't know of any prescribed health testing I would like to know that the breeder has some kind of records for the family history (things like auto immune diseases, lipomas etc seem to be getting more frequent with Weims ) but even if the breeder has such record, they might not think it necessary to share them with the owner, since the breeder is planning and looking after the mating etc.

The stud fee thing kind of depends on what your friend agreed to. If there was an agreement to have the dog available for stud duties and in exchange the purchase price was reduced, or if there was an agreement for pick of the litter or a certain stud fee then these things should be adhered to, but without knowing what was agreed on you cannot possibly make a judgement.

[BlackJaq]

Does your friend actually want to take a stud fee?

[alpha bet]

It is not uncommon for Breeders to sell pups to families and ask to keep the dog entire for breeding.... Hence the term - Breeders Tersm.

The terms should be clarified at time of sale.

Not uncommon to hear of people paying good money for a boy and then having to keep them entire, the breeder then owns the bloodline/registration and the person owns the dog - and usually there is no stud fee unless agreed prior.....

Bitches are also at times put out or sold on Breeders Terms - the rules on these vary greatly, have heard of people paying top dollar for the bitch and then the breeder having lifetime breeding of the girl (4-6 litters even) Usually the breeder pays the costs related to the litter but often the owner is responsible for the running around to get health testing etc and in some cases will actually raise the pups for the initial period.

Personally, if I put a bitch out of Breeders Terms, it is no charge and I get one litter of minimum of 5 live pups, if less then we can go halves in a second litter. I pay costs and the bitch comes to me to whelp and raise the pups. Then if they want I sign the pup over to them. With the boys I sell the pup, if I think about using for stud that would purely depend if were happy to keep them entire and I would then pay a stud fee which is perhaps at a reduced price but at least enough to cover all the health testing required for our breed. However it is their decision - have only done this once each with two different boys. Currently have 3 girls out in homes on breeders terms, it allows me to have access to onbreed but not have to run too many dogs at home.

As far as the collars go it is not uncommon in pups who have single looks to wear colour collars to help identify.

Concerning the health testing - there is no real DNA tests for Weimaraner other than long coat gene. I believe there is no need for the hip/elbow xray (but this could be further clarified with the Kennel Body in your state.

[dancinbcs]

It all sounds perfectly legit to me. Breeders often ask for males to be left entire as insurance for the breeding lines. Sometimes they take semen to freeze once the dog is mature but if the owner is happy with the dog entire they just use them for natural matings. Often stud fees are not asked for when there is only two puppies from a caesar in a breed that normally has larger litters. I would never have taken a stud fee for an outcome like that and I find it quite common for others in my breed to wave the stud fee for just one or two puppies. In fact I only know one breeder who insists that 1 puppy is classed as a litter and the stud fee is payable. This is a good friend of mine but we have agreed to disagree on this point. I wouldn't expect to be paid a stud fee for the breeder of my dog to use him unless it was for lots of litters. If used by others then a stud fee should be paid. I currently have a male who was a gift from the breeder. He is available for her or one of her breeder friends to use at no fee as they share stud dogs and puppies with no money changing hands. We have no written agreement, he is entirely in my name and we never really discussed the details of the arrangement but we trust each other completely. If anyone else wants to use my dog, they would have to get the agreement of his breeder and then I would expect a stud fee.

[megan_]

I'm surprised that people support a large breed dog being used for breeding when he hasn't had his hips and elbows tested?

[espinay2]

I don't see any real issue with it. Breeders often sell dogs on 'breeders terms' though it is important for those terms to be agreed up front. Those terms are between the owner and the breeder and for them to decide. In some cases no stud fee is paid for the breeder (but may be charged for others to use the dog) and sometimes - if that is what is agreed - then a stud fee may paid to the owner. Often a breeder will hold registration in their name while the person keeps the dog as a pet. Colour coding the two pups is pretty normal - particularly if they are the same sex and colour. It just makes it easier to keep accuarate individual records on the pups. I don't know about health testing for the breed so won't comment on that point.

[minimax]

I'm surprised that people support a large breed dog being used for breeding when he hasn't had his hips and elbows tested?

I don't know anything about Weims, but a simple google searched showed hips/elbow scoring isn't mandatory in Australia for registration and there appears to be minor contreversy amongst the Weim people about HD in the breed.

So... take it up with the Weim people :)

[BlackJaq]

I'm surprised that people support a large breed dog being used for breeding when he hasn't had his hips and elbows tested?

I guess there either haven't been many Weims known to be affected or they are simply too rare for people to worry?

Personally I would check both but if it is not a requirement then you can disagree until you turn blue but most people will not do anymore testing than they have to (so if there is no requirement in Australia for Weims then I guess many people will be happy not to test anything).

In Germany no license to breed is granted unless HD testing produces good results (as well as temperament and hunt testing). It's a shame at least the health requirements have not been adopted from the Country of Origin.

[Starkehre]

Everything you describe could be perfectly legit and above board. Of course it may not be, but nothing you say rings alarm bells.

Such breeds would always be marked either with colored collars, painted tails/nails or otherwise. It would be negligent not to know the puppies apart as everything of importance that happens with each pup from birth (weight, issues, feeding, temperament etc) is documented and breeders need to know this. It gets difficult to remember and pups that looks the same are sometimes almost impossible to tell apart, even for the breeder that lives with them.

Some breeders choose to do more testing that is required either by their state kennel council or state breed club, but if they don't it does not make that breeder unethical. It might be different to what another individual breeder chooses to do, but that is not how we measure ethics. If a breeder follows a COE that they are governed by as a member, then they are a COE breeder.

"Terms" agreements are whatever a breeder stipulates and an owner/co-owner agrees to. These terms can and do vary greatly. If the owner does not like it, they are not bound to accepting that dog or any dog from that breeder in the first place. As long as both parties are happy, then the arrangement is fine.

I am wondering if this owner is going to go off half cocked now after you have explained to him that you see red flags in what he has told you?? I hope there are no issues created for nothing :D

Edited December 4, 2013 by dyzney

[megan_]

I'm surprised that people support a large breed dog being used for breeding when he hasn't had his hips and elbows tested?

I don't know anything about Weims, but a simple google searched showed hips/elbow scoring isn't mandatory in Australia for registration and there appears to be minor contreversy amongst the Weim people about HD in the breed.

So... take it up with the Weim people :)

Lots of tests aren't mandatory - it doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. For example, it is my understanding that the Great Dane Breed Club doesn't make any tests mandatory, but good GD breeders get hips and elbows scored. I all depends on how active the breed club is - if it is made up of people who don't test, my guess is they won't be pushing testing.

[Rebanne]

I'm surprised that people support a large breed dog being used for breeding when he hasn't had his hips and elbows tested?

Greyhounds aren't routinely tested. Mine are because I came from GSD's.

[Roova]

Does your friend actually want to take a stud fee?

He is definitely quite happy to accept a stud fee and Im sure that played a big part in him keeping his dog entire! He said he paid full price for the puppy and wasn't given a discount. Surely she wouldn't have offered a stud fee is she felt entitled to use him? I feel a bit sorry for him because as the one with experience of what can happen on the breeding end, she should have spoken about all the details before using his boy. What the fee would be, when she would pay it and if it was dependant on puppy numbers etc. I can't see its his fault the bitch required a caesarian? It made it an expensive venture for the breeder but he's kept his pet dog entire for a couple of years for her use.

Everything you describe could be perfectly legit and above board. Of course it may not be, but nothing you say rings alarm bells.

Such breeds would always be marked either with colored collars, painted tails/nails or otherwise. It would be negligent not to know the puppies apart as everything of importance that happens with each pup from birth (weight, issues, feeding, temperament etc) is documented and breeders need to know this. It gets difficult to remember and pups that looks the same are sometimes almost impossible to tell apart, even for the breeder that lives with them.

Some breeders choose to do more testing that is required either by their state kennel council or state breed club, but if they don't it does not make that breeder unethical. It might be different to what another individual breeder chooses to do, but that is not how we measure ethics. If a breeder follows a COE that they are governed by as a member, then they are a COE breeder.

"Terms" agreements are whatever a breeder stipulates and an owner/co-owner agrees to. These terms can and do vary greatly. If the owner does not like it, they are not bound to accepting that dog or any dog from that breeder in the first place. As long as both parties are happy, then the arrangement is fine.

I am wondering if this owner is going to go off half cocked now after you have explained to him that you see red flags in what he has told you?? I hope there are no issues created for nothing :D

From his perspective his biggest concern was she hadn't paid him or discussed any details about it. Any red flags were happening in my head only Im sure. I have to say though, if any other frieds talked about studding out their pet dog who had never been shown or health tested, I'd probably ask the same questions again. Only since being a member of DOL and reading different stories about registered breeders though! :laugh: Either way, without knowing the full story its all guess work and as he's a big boy, Im sure he can work it out between the two breeders.

[BlackJaq]

(...)I have to say though, if any other frieds talked about studding out their pet dog who had never been shown or health tested, I'd probably ask the same questions again. (...)

Well I guess there is a big difference between a registered breeder selling a dog on breeder's terms and asking to use the dog to a Joe Blow pet owner deciding to let Rex have at neighbor's bitch because they would make cute puppies.

I'm not saying this dog is super special, I obviously have no way of knowing, but some breeds like the Weimaraner constantly struggle with a narrowing gene pool, which is not helped by so many dogs going to pet homes and being spayed/neutered. I can see why a breeder would like to keep as many of their (good quality) offspring intact as possible to allow a greater choice in dogs and bitches to breed from without keeping a large herd of dogs in their own home.

I personally disagree with the lack of health testing, but with no required tests it is up to the breeder's discretion. I would always prefer to buy a pup from a breeder who does test what it is possible to test for though, regardless of any show record (I would be more interested in the working history :p )

[Christina]

What has you friend got in writing ?

If the dog was on breeders terms They would need a written agreement, even breeders who are friends usually do that.

If the dog was sold to them for full price & nothing in writing your friend owns the dog & can desex at any time.

If there is no paperwork & the breeder doesn't pay any stud fee the only thing your friend can do is not sign the service paper.

This doesn't stop the sale of the pups but it means no pedigree with them.

For future it would be best for your friend to desex the dog & not dabble into breeding any more without further research & strong desire to do it with knowledge.

[sandgrubber]

I think he should stop pussyfooting and point out:

1) That he kept his boy entire at the breeder's request, and he paid full price for the dog

2) That the need for a Ceasar has much more to do with the bitch than the dog

3) That he understood he was to receive a stud fee.

If there have been two litters and one of them was two puppies, what happened to the other litter?

It is always hard to figure out what is fair when terms were not made explicit. But it sounds to me like the breeder is taking advantage of the fellow's inexperience.

[Rain]

I think he should stop pussyfooting and point out:

1) That he kept his boy entire at the breeder's request, and he paid full price for the dog

2) That the need for a Ceasar has much more to do with the bitch than the dog

3) That he understood he was to receive a stud fee.

If there have been two litters and one of them was two puppies, what happened to the other litter?

It is always hard to figure out what is fair when terms were not made explicit. But it sounds to me like the breeder is taking advantage of the fellow's inexperience.

I agree with the above, well said