Fearful Behaviour

[Pretty Miss Emma]

So, I have a bit of an issue that has recently gotten a bit worse with Miss Kenzie Kenz.

Since she was about 9-12 months old Kenzie has been quite scared of my Mum and Dad's neighbour. But of recent it is getting worse. I know what is triggering it to be worse, which is a combination of issues... she spend 2 or 3 days a week at Mum and Dad's while I'm at work (this is a necessity due to the security of my back yard currently), she can hear him from the back yard, he comes to their house and if he knows she is there he tries to talk to her (he's convinced he is a dog whisperer and every dog loves him and he refuses to accept that Kenzie is petrified of him).

We don't know what started this problem. As a baby she loved him and would sleep on his lap. But she ran away for a few hours when she was about 9-12 months and it was after this that I started seeing the fear behaviour. So I don't think it is something that he has done, I think it is just that she associates something not good with him for whatever reason and possibly due to something that happened to her while she was missing. And she really has no reason to be fearful of him (other than the fact that she just is).

So, usually the behaviours I see are the lip licking, panting, yawning, shake offs, whale eye, hiding (either behind my legs, somewher ein the car, somewhere in the house or out in the garden), desperately trying to get away from him (particularly when on lead), hyper-vigilance when we pull in the driveway, and she has toileted at times. When the doorbell rings she absolutely bolts to the back of the house and then paces and darts from hiding place to hiding place; if I'm there she will literally try to climb in to my lap.

I do my best to ignore (as in not encourage) the behaviours but keep her "safe". I move her quickly away from him as much as I can. We let her go wherever in the house is going to keep her happy when he is around. We ask him to ignore her and not try to interact with her at all, but he "knows best" and "all dogs love him" so this lasts for around 5 seconds (and we remind him everytime he tries to talk to her - so it's a constant conversation of blah blah blah, just ignore Kenzie then she might speak to you, blah, blah, blah, just ignore her, etc). Mum and Dad do everything the can to keep her safe and calm when I'm not there and it's really upsetting my Mum how anxious Kenzie gets, she wants her to love visiting her (which she does, she loves her grandma and grandpa, she's just super anxious the whole time because what if the neighbour comes in).

We're at a bit of a loss about what to do, and it makes all of us a bit sad that she is feeling this stressed. Mum and Dad try to make sure they're prepared if the neighbour is coming over by getting Kenz either outside or in to a room on her own before he comes; and they don't let on that she's there, or they just say they're not sure where she is in the house. They constantly ask him not to talk to her or try to go near her. She's such a compliant little girl, so she often eventually does go up to him if she's cornered and will lick him on the hand (I wish she wouldn't because then he thinks he's "won her over" and he doesn't need to take it easy). We've tried feeding her exceptionally high value food, which she will take (and I don't care how much of it he gives her if it makes her feel better, and she will stress to the point of not eating so the fact that she does is good) but again he goes too far too fast.

So anyway I'm looking for something else to try. It is not practical to say he just can't come over when she's there; it would be like saying your grandparents couldn't come over. So it is something that needs to be managed and hopefully improved. Plus he is someone who does handyman type work with my Dad at my house (although Dad always tries to coordinate this so that it is a day when Kenz is at work with me to minimise the stress involved!). But I need some more ideas on what to try.

Tomorrow Kenz is spending the day at Mum and Dad's. I'm going to give her some rescue remedy and probably some orange essence on her collar (I'll bring home my de-stress spray from work to have at Mum and Dad's also). But any other ideas anybody? I don't care whether she talks to him or not, I just want her to feel less stressed about having to hear and see him.

Oh, and the reason I've finally come here for help is that Mum was telling me she was really concerned about Kenz on Tuesday night (she had a sleep over there). She wouldn't settle and sit in the living room with Mum, which she usually does. She would just stare out to the street. She was sitting on Mum's bed for a while and Mum thought she was panting more than she should be. She couldn't find a place she was happy to sleep. And then in the morning she had an accident in the lounge room, which she's never done there. And I think what flagged this most with Mum was that the neighbour didn't even come over. I know she doesn't like being away from me, and we have also just moved house so she will be unsettled; but it's upsetting to think my little girl is feeling this way, and that my Mum is getting so worried about her.

Sorry that was a long post, but any ideas for help would be great!

[hankdog]

It's interesting to me that she might have the one-trial superstitious learning style that Jake has. Might be quite common in reactive type dogs.As you say she has no reason to be fearful she just is.

Since you can't get the man to back off maybe he could be useful if you separated him from his context. Get him to meet you somewhere completely different. Either at your home although you always worry about the home becoming"tainted" or somewhere she's familiar with and has a good time at but not in anyway associated with your visits to your parents. Spray the man with different cologne and see if you can dress him differently. Maybe if she doesn't have all the other cues as to who is and linking him to whatever happened then she'll re-educate herself.

Just a thought based on the fact I don't recognize people out of context, every likelihood she's smarter than me though????.

[sheena]

Does this neighbour wear a hat or sunglasses Just a wild thought. But I would be shaping her out of it using clicker training & the LAT method & taking it small baby steps at a time.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

She's seen him elsewhere and totally freaked. It was an agility trial and I was almost ready to pull her out because I was worried she would run off. She was ok in the end because we walked off, calmed down and then she was too busy having fun with her run to worry.

Have tried LAT, but she generally is so concerned about getting away that she just doesn't care. And it's not the look of him, it's the sound of his voice, the worry that it might be him at the door, etc.

This is why it's so frustrating! If he would follow the instructions we'd be getting somewhere but he won't so I feel like we're constantly treading water in this case!

[megan_]

I know you have said asking him not to come over isn't an option, but is it a short-term possibility to give her a bit of a break? When they are scared of something and they are constantly exposed with no out then there is a risk that they just get more and more fearful (like she is now).

If your parents can't ask him not to visit for 2 weeks, is Kenz able to stay indoors at your house while you're at work? She might just need a break while you figure out a plan of attack.

I had something (sort of) similar happen when the smoke alarm went off a few days in a row at my house. It is a horrible sound and would be worse for the dogs as they have sensitive hearing. It went off each morning for a week before I could stop the cause . They would scramble outside (I think it hurt their ears) and Fergs didn't want to come inside for about 1/2 an hour afterwards. After that, I turned the hair straighter on, it made 2 small beeps and they both ran outside. This happened every morning, when previously they didn't care about it. They associated the beeping with the fire alarm. I gave it a break for a while, had frizzy hair for a week but then they got over it.

[raineth]

Gees poor Kenzie! That sounds pretty full on. It's excellent how co-operative your parents are though :)

This is my feeling (based more on what I know about human psychology though):

Sometimes when people who have more than one phobia or strong fear, they are so on edge all the time that they can develop more phobias, and eventually develop 'generalised anxiety disorder' which is basically where everything makes them anxious and fearful.

I worry that this might be happening with Kenzie. She is very afraid of this man and might be often on the lookout for his appearance. What you were saying about her being restless on Tuesday night sounds like she might be generalising her anxiety about the neighbour to other things in the environment of your parent's place.

This does make me worry that if it keeps up she may just keep accumulating new fears in that environment.

Having said all that, as you know, the main problem is that the guy is uncooperative. If he was co-operative you could probably do your usual CC with the usual success.

Is there any possibility at all that he could be convinced by your parents to try things your way? You know, if they acknowledge what a great dog whisperer he is, but would he be kind enough to let you try your 'crazy' method... That sort of thing? Or offer to buy him a carton of beer, or a bottle of wine if he cooperates with your training experiment. In essence I feel like we need to concentrate the efforts on convincing him to go along with a CC protocol, because if you can do that then you can fix the problem.

[Weasels]

Having said all that, as you know, the main problem is that the guy is uncooperative.

I gotta say I agree with the last 2 posts - reading your post PME it struck me your main issue is a people problem rather than a dog problem If it were me I'd focus most on trying to get her locked away when he is there, we have had electricians here regularly recently and I've spent quite a bit of time locked in a room with Weez either giving him massage or with a pigs ear. They are too unpredictable to use for training, but at least they mostly ignore him so for the last 2 visits he's managed to eat an ear in his crate instead :) But with this guy doesn't sound like he will ever be an asset for training, I would stick with management as much as possible :/ It's a sucky situation, poor Kenz

[BC Crazy]

Yes I too agree with all the others pme. I would just keep her away from him. My girl doesn't like one of Mr BCC's work mates. She wont have a bar of him & runs around the back to hide from him. I just put her away now. He is the only person she dislikes. So I think we cant expect them to like everybody.Kenz sounds frightened of this fella for her own reasons. If I were him I wouldn't push the point with Kenzie. I think that is very unfair & if Kenz was mine I would crate her or something. Not worth her getting upset, poor girl.

You are very fortunate to have such helpful, supportive parents pme. Kenzie is in great hands then when your very capable ones are busy :)

Edited November 30, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Pretty Miss Emma]

Thanks all. I was hoping there might be something I haven't tried, but I think you are all right. I can't crate her, just bbecause if he knew she was in a crate he'd go to find her there! But we will just keep putting her in a room where she is happy and saying we don't know where she is. Soon she will be able to stay home sometimes and won't have to be there all the time (I'm sure she'll miss seeing mum and dad and their dogs all the time but won't miss hearing/seeing the neighbour!).

[ness]

No words of wisdom but I know what your going through - having my own issues with my Kenz and the brothers new girlfriend who has practically moved in overnight. She was never keen on the old one but she wasn't spending most nights here. Poor Kenz I hope you work out a solution for her.

[persephone]

I can't crate her, just because if he knew she was in a crate he'd go to find her there!

That's odd .... in someone else's house , he goes looking for the dog ?

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I can't crate her, just because if he knew she was in a crate he'd go to find her there!

That's odd .... in someone else's house , he goes looking for the dog ?

I find it very odd too and very rude and disrespectful - honestly he's been asked not to do something and ignores your request?

He might seem harmless but i'd go with the dog's behaviour - he has to have done something that you are not aware of. Never force a dog to interact with someone they feel like this about. Trust your dog's instincts - unless they are like it with everyone and the dog has a serious issue.

I can't believe people sometimes.

[sheena]

I can't crate her, just because if he knew she was in a crate he'd go to find her there!

That's odd .... in someone else's house , he goes looking for the dog ?

I find it very odd too and very rude and disrespectful - honestly he's been asked not to do something and ignores your request?

He might seem harmless but i'd go with the dog's behaviour - he has to have done something that you are not aware of. Never force a dog to interact with someone they feel like this about. Trust your dog's instincts - unless they are like it with everyone and the dog has a serious issue.

I can't believe people sometimes.

X's two. I think your dog is picking up the same vibrations from this guy that you are only she picked up on his rudeness long before you did. He is rude & completely out of place. IMO

[megan_]

She could be fearful and he hasn't done something. I have a fearful dog who is scared of most men, regardless of what they have done. Dogs with fear issues can become paranoid about tiny things (eg Lucy loves the car, but I put up one of those window shade things and she was panting and terrified).

Either way, it is very rude of him. I know a few people like that - the so called Dog Whisperers" ("don't worry, all dogs love me"). You can plead with them all you like, they ignore you because they have a "gift".

My solution to these people is very simple - they never, ever, ever get the opportunity to come into contact with my fearful girl. Ever. My cousin is like this and he is not invited to my house unless Lucy is in care at Cosmolos.

[Rosetta]

Honestly it almost sounds like you need a restraining order for this guy. What an idiot. It puts your parents in a very awkward position and I don't know what the answer is. Does the guy come over every day? Its almost a matter of locking her away the whole time she is there or find somewhere else for her to go.

[dragonwoman]

I can't crate her, just because if he knew she was in a crate he'd go to find her there!

That's odd .... in someone else's house , he goes looking for the dog ?

I find it very odd too and very rude and disrespectful - honestly he's been asked not to do something and ignores your request?

He might seem harmless but i'd go with the dog's behaviour - he has to have done something that you are not aware of. Never force a dog to interact with someone they feel like this about. Trust your dog's instincts - unless they are like it with everyone and the dog has a serious issue.

I can't believe people sometimes.

I'd believe the dog, this person has done something to her or she connects him with a bad experience.

[alpha bet]

My take on this is that you have to find another solution other than leaving the dog at your parents - either fix your backyard to ensure she is safe or pay to put the dog in day care where she can have have the opportunity to develop positive experiences of mixing with different dogs.

It appears you have tried so many different things but to no avail - you have no way of controlling the environment at your parents and it obviously doesn't suit your dog. Leaving her there is only going to allow these issues to fester.

[BlackJaq]

I think your dog is entitled to a place where she feels safe at all times. It is your job to keep that guy away from her "safe place" by any means necessary.

Whether that place be a certain room or a crate or a bed somewhere doesn't matter as long as your dog knows that going there will make her safe from everybody and everything and you must ensure that this is true.

I understand that this might put you in an uncomfortable position regarding dealing with the neighbor, but what happens if he corners her one day and she freaks out and snaps at him? If you are extremely unfortunate she might accidentally injure him, rather than just scaring him. I know many people believe their dogs are not capable but dogs who are fearful seem to be the first ones to bite to defend themselves, especially if their handler is not doing it for them.

I honestly find it a little difficult to believe that you would put the neighbor's feelings above the feelings of your dog. She is your dog and you are responsible for her and her wellbeing. Obviously she is not feeling well with that guy around. Make him bugger of in any way that becomes necessary if he will not participate in training on your terms.

Having a safe place is important for any dog, but especially so for a generally fearful dog. Your dog sounds completely terrified, and it might not just stay confined to your parents house either. As others have said,m she will begin looking for him everywhere (especially if she has already seen him elsewhere) and if she is being given no chance to recover then things will only spiral out of control from here.

Personally, I would teach her that her crate is her castle and she is safe from everybody in there if she chooses to enter it and then enforce it as a complete no-go zone for everybody. Lock the room if the guy won't take a hint (though it may be too late for this if she is already scared of his voice and you may want to keep him completely out of earshot) and strictly enforce the crate as her safe zone, not letting anyone approach her there. If she wants to come out and interact, great, but if she doesn't she should be able to withdraw somewhere she feels comfortable and safe.

I can't believe she has to run away from that guy in her own home! What a nutter!