Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Hi everyone, I have a litter of puppies 7 in total, my pick female for showing/breeding has a small Umbilical Hernia they are now 8 weeks of age. One other male puppy from this litter has it also, he is going into a pet home. So i am getting mixed information about whether i should keep her or desex and place in a pet home, my vet says it's genetic and to desex and when i speak to a couple of breeders they say there is nothing to worry about and it is not genetic just the mother being too rough when cutting their cords at birth. The sire and dam both do not have it, and with her first litter there were none with Umbilical Hernias, i had to cut all the cords myself (first litter and dam too overwhelmed). I appreciate experienced breeders advice, has anyone kept a puppy with a UH and breed with them? Did it throw off onto the litter? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessicaM Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Have not bred a litter but my friend has a lovely bitch shepherd who had a litter and has ba hernia. She had 5 pups, was gentle with their placentas and birth and none have had any hernias. She has recently had 2 litters of pups, complete different bitches, 1 was quite rough with the placentas and was tugging etc, 2 out of 5 pups had small hernias. Her previous litter had none as far as I know... I'd say it can be hereditary but more often caused from the bitch being rough... good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I think the general rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution. Place in pet home and desex. From my knowledge it is more common in particular breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Thanks for sharing your friends experience JessicaM, i appreciate it. Thank you also Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I was given a bitch with an umbilical hernia. Her first litter was born and raised at my house and was born by c-section - one pup had an umbilical hernia. She had a second litter with 7 surviving pups also by c-section, none had an umbilical hernia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I believe it's genetic and do not buy into the tripe that it's due to the bitches being rough. I've seen them in litters where the bitches have had C-sections and there is no excuse. They are more common in some breeds that others. I have never personally retained a puppy with an umbilical hernia for show or breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 I was given a bitch with an umbilical hernia. Her first litter was born and raised at my house and was born by c-section - one pup had an umbilical hernia. She had a second litter with 7 surviving pups also by c-section, none had an umbilical hernia. This is what i am trying to understand, if the said bitch had a UH and produced one puppy with a UH, then next litter none with a UH then if it is genetic why wasn't there any born in the second litter with UH? I know you can't answer this Trisven13, but would be interesting to know the answer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 I believe it's genetic and do not buy into the tripe that it's due to the bitches being rough. I've seen them in litters where the bitches have had C-sections and there is no excuse. They are more common in some breeds that others. I have never personally retained a puppy with an umbilical hernia for show or breeding. Thank you, this why i have asked to see what other breeders experience is and what decision they then make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidley Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 We bred a bitch with a UH and she whelmed 7 puppies, none with UHs we kept 2 daughters and if they pass all health tests they will also be bred from. All of this done in consultation with a respected repro vet who says still not enough research to not breed from a good quality bitch who has passed all health tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 We bred a bitch with a UH and she whelmed 7 puppies, none with UHs we kept 2 daughters and if they pass all health tests they will also be bred from. All of this done in consultation with a respected repro vet who says still not enough research to not breed from a good quality bitch who has passed all health tests. Hi Heidley, what i am finding in my research is that there is not enough evidence that it is genetic, bitches with a UH producing litters with no UH puppies. Thanks for letting me know your experience as we are still weighing up what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 (edited) I had a beautiful girl all picked out to keep and at 6 weeks an umbilical hernia - not big but nevertheless a hernia - I went onto google and read all I could - also asked my vet - he said it should be fine - her mother had no hernia. I did breed this girl 5 times (one litter was only 1 pup) - she was just great never needed a C section - had her desexed over a year ago now and it was just tucked in. In her litters there were a few pups not many but hard to remember really mostly only one in the litter on one occasion there were two with small hernias all went to pet homes so I personally feel it does have something to do with hereditary - of course its an imperfection but if its only a very small one which is just a little trapped fat - it does not seem to cause a problem - at least from my own experience. I read a blog from a breeder on this who said he had a girl who had a hernia and bred her quite a few times and she proved to be a remarkable mother with no ill effects at all this helped me make my decision. When I did sell pups with hernias I would include a written guarantee that if there was any extra cost incurred from the desexing due to tucking in the hernia I would pay the difference - never had anyone ask for it though. Edited November 28, 2013 by mini girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Yep all the research I did (mainly overseas with Fauve breeders) and consultation with my vet indicated that there was not enough evidence to show that a bitch should be removed due to it. I would have thought it was genetic I would have had more in the litter of 8 as that was a line breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedaler Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I have bred 4 litters from a bitch with a UH and not one puppy had one. Smallest litter was 5 and largest 12 so plenty of pups born. I would not automatically eliminate a bitch with a hernia from my breeding program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 I had a beautiful girl all picked out to keep and at 6 weeks an umbilical hernia - not big but nevertheless a hernia - I went onto google and read all I could - also asked my vet - he said it should be fine - her mother had no hernia. I did breed this girl 5 times (one litter was only 1 pup) - she was just great never needed a C section - had her desexed over a year ago now and it was just tucked in. In her litters there were a few pups not many but hard to remember really mostly only one in the litter on one occasion there were two with small hernias all went to pet homes so I personally feel it does have something to do with hereditary - of course its an imperfection but if its only a very small one which is just a little trapped fat - it does not seem to cause a problem - at least from my own experience. I read a blog from a breeder on this who said he had a girl who had a hernia and bred her quite a few times and she proved to be a remarkable mother with no ill effects at all this helped me make my decision. When I did sell pups with hernias I would include a written guarantee that if there was any extra cost incurred from the desexing due to tucking in the hernia I would pay the difference - never had anyone ask for it though. Thank you mini girl for sharing your experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyehaven Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Wouldn't stop me keeping it if its the best bitch in the litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 I have bred 4 litters from a bitch with a UH and not one puppy had one. Smallest litter was 5 and largest 12 so plenty of pups born. I would not automatically eliminate a bitch with a hernia from my breeding program. Thank you Airedaler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 If that is the only defect the pup has - go for it! My foundation bitch had a small UH and I have never had issues with anything down from her (8 generations now), and the number of UH can be counted on one hand, and none big enough to need attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 A lot depends on the size of your available gene pool. What you have to loose by rejecting her against what you have to gain by using her. Are there any others of like or similar breeding etc etc Not as straight forward as one might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) As long as the hernia is small and has closed over by the time the puppy is 10 or 12 weeks old I wouldnt reject the pup as a show or breeding prospect. It is a minor defect in my view and I have seen quite a few in my breed over the years. I have never seen one that has caused the dog a problem. I have always recommended that they be closed at the time of sterilisation if they are still palpable but again I know of very few that have needed surgical correction. One of my stud dogs, as a puppy, had a small UH which closed over by the time he was 12 weeks old. He was a terrific dog with wonderful health stats, great temperament, lovely conformation (specialty BIS winner) and as a sire he passed on many of his desirable attributes to his progeny. He also produced a small number of puppies that had UH. I considered this to be acceptable in the light of his other desirable and hard-to-get traits. I wouldnt consider removing him from my breeding programme in favour of a dog without the positive attributes that he had, but which didnt produce UH. One of his daughters that I kept for breeding also had the same small UH which closed by 12 weeks. She has whelped 2 large litters without any difficulty. One puppy had a small UH. I think that as breeders we need to look at the bigger picture and decide what is a reasonable compromise. Perfection is never achievable so what are we going to say is an OK level of "imperfection" ?? Do we reject all dogs with minor imperfections and therefore potentially lose the benefits that their other positive attributes may bring to the gene pool, or do we carefully weigh the pro's with the cons and accept some level of compromise in order to achieve other improvements that are of greater importance ? I have a reputation for being "fussy" and particular about health in my breed and I will not play with many things that some other breeders will accept in the pursuit of an excellent specimen. In an otherwise good example of the breed I will however, accept a small umbilical hernia, as long as it does not remain palpably open after 12 weeks of age. Edited November 29, 2013 by Wundahoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Great post Wundahoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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