Veterinary Upselling On The Other A B C (20/20)

[sandgrubber]

This is hardly news, and not unique to veterinarians (lots of doctors do the same). Still it's good to see it on mainstream TV. I think they got it right that tooth cleaning and unnecessary vaccinations are the big unnecessary procedures that get peddled.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/veterinarians-sell-unnecessary-shots-tests-make-extra-money/story?id=20967672 (text)

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/veterinarian-honest-20987714 (video)

Some Veterinarians Sell Unnecessary Shots, Tests to Make Extra Money, Says Former Vet Nov. 22, 2013 By JOSEPH RHEE, GERRY WAGSCHAL and KIMBERLY LAUNIER via 20/20

ABC News conducted an undercover investigation at vet clinics in New York and New Jersey, using two different dogs. In this photo, Honey, a 5-year-old pitbull, gets a check-up. ABC News For most pet owners, man's best friend is another member of the family and deserves the best care, but a former veterinarian says that some vets, out to make an extra buck, will pad the bill with unnecessary shots, tests and procedures.

Andrew Jones worked as a veterinarian for 17 years. He left the industry after a dispute with his medical board over marketing issues, and wrote a book called, "Veterinary Secrets: Revealed."

"I'm clearly not making friends within the veterinarian industry, but I feel I'm saying things that need to be said, that aren't being said," Jones said.

Watch the full story on "20/20" tonight at 10 p.m. ET

As a young veterinarian working at a clinic in British Columbia, Jones said he got an early lesson about upselling after telling a pet owner whose dog had a lump to just monitor it. At the time, Jones said he was fairly certain the dog's lump was a benign fatty tumor, but said the clinic owner quickly clued him in on the effectiveness of using the dreaded "c" word: cancer.

"The practice owner... said, 'no, that's not how you do it... what you need to do is get that dog back in... It's going to be much more profitable for the practice,'" Jones said. "He said that it might be cancer. And it's-- usually the 'c' word, pet owners get really concerned and they say, 'do whatever you need to make sure it's not serious.'"

Throughout his career, Jones said he discovered a dark reality about some veterinarians in the United States and Canada, including himself.

"They feel that pressure of, 'I've got these overhead costs to make,' and that's where your judgment gets caught," he said.

Jones said that, under pressure from bosses, he ordered services that were not needed. He said "no question" he would have been fired if he hadn't done as his bosses asked.

"If I didn't meet this certain target, then yeah, my employment was at threat."

But Jones said even after he owned his own clinic, at times, he continued upselling.

"There are things... that I did as a practice owner, where in hindsight, probably didn't need to be done," he said. "For instance, seeing a dog that has a little bit of tartar... then I might say, 'I think your dog should have a dental cleaning'... It's obviously more profitable for the practice."

[Steph M]

I understand having to pay costs and make money but it’s all pretty bleak.

I trust my vets. I don’t have a veterinary degree and as thus I place a lot of trust in my vets and believe they’re acting in our best interests. A tooth clean under anaesthesia isn’t a small deal, and to an older dog that can be a sizable deal. Extra shots can be hard on the bank account and above all I don’t like to think I’m pumping my pets full of crap they don’t need.

Numerous studies report we’re spending more and more money on our pets, we’re more aware of their health and more likely to visit the vet for a minor issue than we were 20 years ago I’d imagine. Lots of friends my own age have pets rather than children and tend to look after them as such.

I do have to wonder if it’s a degree of greed rather than the need to cover costs. Perhaps also the large, well advertised franchises like Greencross are driving the smaller local vet under?

[aliwake]

It's pretty disturbing, and I have no doubt that some vets do it, but we need to have some degree of faith in what they do. This is an article a vet friend of mine posted to fb recently - gives another inside perspective:

http://lindseylaneverlander.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/the-reality-of-veterinary-medicine.html?m=1

I think all we can do is keep both in mind when getting treatment for our pets.

I think I've definitely experienced the upselling, but not in an excessive way, or a way that would harm my pet, so I try not to get too worked up about it :)

[tdierikx]

When I was in year 11-12, someone suggested to me that I should be a vet... not on your life mate! Apart from the fact that I was too lazy to put in the effort to get an HSC mark that would get me into Vet Science, there is no way I could cope with what an average vet has to deal with on a daily basis.

That said, and while I have a lot of respect for the job vets do, I'm not a fan of upselling or having procedures done on my pets that aren't 100% necessary. Any vet that tries to push me towards either will get a short (and mostly polite) "no thanks". I also like to be a part of the diagnostic "team" when it comes to my pets' medical issues - who really knows MY pets better than I do after all?

T.

[mita]

I have an excellent vet ... who doesn't rush straight into medication or procedures. She has a sense of proportion, based on the condition that's presenting. If it can be confidently treated with 'natural' means, that's what she recommends. So whenever she says that medication or a procedure is necessary, I know it is.

Edited November 25, 2013 by mita

[Steph M]

That said, and while I have a lot of respect for the job vets do, I'm not a fan of upselling or having procedures done on my pets that aren't 100% necessary. Any vet that tries to push me towards either will get a short (and mostly polite) "no thanks". I also like to be a part of the diagnostic "team" when it comes to my pets' medical issues - who really knows MY pets better than I do after all?

T.

I agree and I like to think I have the ability to take a step back and think rationally about things, but sometimes this doesn't happen. I;E in an emergency (real or percieved).

IMO this incapacity is easily exacerbated by a lack of clinical knowledge, understanding of jargon or just unwillingness/inability to question authority figures.

I know my grandmother has a chubby 16 year old cat with a myriad of other random issues recently got stung for a full teeth clean and removal of a skin cancer on her ear. At 16 that wasn't likely to be what kills her, and surely the risks of anesthesia are greater than the cancer.

Her other cat, Lucy, lived til 14 and when she passed, quietly in her sleep while being boarded at the vet while Grandma was away, they called to ask her if she wanted an autopsy and the nurse proceeded to ask if she was sure she didn't want one 'for peace of mind'

It isn't so much me I worry about, but there is a huge ageing population, most of whom were raised not to question professionals like doctors etc. I know my grandma certainly falls into this category.

It isn't exclusive though. I've also been stung (pardon the pun) for anti-inflammatory shots for when Gus got stung by a bee. I didn't see it so thought better safe than sorry as it was right on his mouth and I worried if it were a wasp and he'd swallowed it or an allergy or something it could be dangerous. They offered the shot before I was even told 'it's just a bee sting'

Happy to pay the consult fee to be told that, but rather annoyed I didn't get the option to decide on the course of treatment, which would have been home and some stingose.

It's a position of power and it saddens me to think it might be misused and your love for your pet might cause you to be taken advantage of.

[tdierikx]

When Harper bit a bee (and it stung her back), I was much more calm than the vet... lol! She did need both the antihistimine AND an anti-inflammatory, as her reaction was rather violent to say the least. Next time will be when I have to panic - she's rather allergic to bees it seems... errr! Even after both shots, it was a good 7 hours before her face went down and the hives disappeared...

I don't know if growing up on a farm during my teenage years has much to do with it, but I'm rather a dab hand at patching up animals. You had to be when the vet was a minimum 30-45 mins drive from you. I remember once when a friend's horse got stuck in a cattle grid, and I had to ride my pushbike for 5km to help her get him out - then while she rang for the vet to come out to us, I ripped the sleeves off my shirt and bandaged his torn frog good enough to walk him back to her place to wait for the vet. The vet was highly impressed that a 15 year old had the presence of mind to do that with an obviously upset and injured horse. It definitely helped that I and the horse were on good terms anyways... hence my friend calling ME to help get him unstuck from the grid... *grin*

My dad and I also did some minor sugery on our dog when he came home with a bullet stuck in his chest - luckily it missed anything vital, and was lodged not too far under the skin. It had gone in just near the armpit and lodged in the chest muscle. We never did find out who had shot at him... probably some kids doing target practice, and it was a stray bullet...

When I was 17, our dog needed a lump removed from his belly - I got to assist with the surgery in lieu of payment... *grin*

T.

[Jumabaar]

That said, and while I have a lot of respect for the job vets do, I'm not a fan of upselling or having procedures done on my pets that aren't 100% necessary. Any vet that tries to push me towards either will get a short (and mostly polite) "no thanks". I also like to be a part of the diagnostic "team" when it comes to my pets' medical issues - who really knows MY pets better than I do after all?

T.

I agree and I like to think I have the ability to take a step back and think rationally about things, but sometimes this doesn't happen. I;E in an emergency (real or percieved).

IMO this incapacity is easily exacerbated by a lack of clinical knowledge, understanding of jargon or just unwillingness/inability to question authority figures.

I know my grandmother has a chubby 16 year old cat with a myriad of other random issues recently got stung for a full teeth clean and removal of a skin cancer on her ear. At 16 that wasn't likely to be what kills her, and surely the risks of anesthesia are greater than the cancer.

Her other cat, Lucy, lived til 14 and when she passed, quietly in her sleep while being boarded at the vet while Grandma was away, they called to ask her if she wanted an autopsy and the nurse proceeded to ask if she was sure she didn't want one 'for peace of mind'

It isn't so much me I worry about, but there is a huge ageing population, most of whom were raised not to question professionals like doctors etc. I know my grandma certainly falls into this category.

It isn't exclusive though. I've also been stung (pardon the pun) for anti-inflammatory shots for when Gus got stung by a bee. I didn't see it so thought better safe than sorry as it was right on his mouth and I worried if it were a wasp and he'd swallowed it or an allergy or something it could be dangerous. They offered the shot before I was even told 'it's just a bee sting'

Happy to pay the consult fee to be told that, but rather annoyed I didn't get the option to decide on the course of treatment, which would have been home and some stingose.

It's a position of power and it saddens me to think it might be misused and your love for your pet might cause you to be taken advantage of.

Personally i would rather die than be left with a mouthful of manky rotten teeth why should an animal have to suffer just because they are old. There is an element to quality of life- some cancers are painful or distressing for the animal (ears can become very ulcerated and painful) and if the teeth are bad then why not take off the cancer under the same anaesthetic.

I have seen a 20 year old dog have a dental, it was done carefully and said 20yr old dog was brighter than ever 2 days later. Age isnt a disease and it should be used as an excuse not to treat conditions that are fixable.

[kelpiecuddles]

Makes me glad to have my vet, tells me my options and which ones are necessary and which ones are optional and then leaves me to use my own brain as to which ones are important to me.

[Steph M]

That said, and while I have a lot of respect for the job vets do, I'm not a fan of upselling or having procedures done on my pets that aren't 100% necessary. Any vet that tries to push me towards either will get a short (and mostly polite) "no thanks". I also like to be a part of the diagnostic "team" when it comes to my pets' medical issues - who really knows MY pets better than I do after all?

T.

I agree and I like to think I have the ability to take a step back and think rationally about things, but sometimes this doesn't happen. I;E in an emergency (real or percieved).

IMO this incapacity is easily exacerbated by a lack of clinical knowledge, understanding of jargon or just unwillingness/inability to question authority figures.

I know my grandmother has a chubby 16 year old cat with a myriad of other random issues recently got stung for a full teeth clean and removal of a skin cancer on her ear. At 16 that wasn't likely to be what kills her, and surely the risks of anesthesia are greater than the cancer.

Her other cat, Lucy, lived til 14 and when she passed, quietly in her sleep while being boarded at the vet while Grandma was away, they called to ask her if she wanted an autopsy and the nurse proceeded to ask if she was sure she didn't want one 'for peace of mind'

It isn't so much me I worry about, but there is a huge ageing population, most of whom were raised not to question professionals like doctors etc. I know my grandma certainly falls into this category.

It isn't exclusive though. I've also been stung (pardon the pun) for anti-inflammatory shots for when Gus got stung by a bee. I didn't see it so thought better safe than sorry as it was right on his mouth and I worried if it were a wasp and he'd swallowed it or an allergy or something it could be dangerous. They offered the shot before I was even told 'it's just a bee sting'

Happy to pay the consult fee to be told that, but rather annoyed I didn't get the option to decide on the course of treatment, which would have been home and some stingose.

It's a position of power and it saddens me to think it might be misused and your love for your pet might cause you to be taken advantage of.

Personally i would rather die than be left with a mouthful of manky rotten teeth why should an animal have to suffer just because they are old. There is an element to quality of life- some cancers are painful or distressing for the animal (ears can become very ulcerated and painful) and if the teeth are bad then why not take off the cancer under the same anaesthetic.

I have seen a 20 year old dog have a dental, it was done carefully and said 20yr old dog was brighter than ever 2 days later. Age isnt a disease and it should be used as an excuse not to treat conditions that are fixable.

For the most part I agree, but a little tartar is different to a mouthful of manky teeth, and a slightly darkened spot which could have been a cancer or could have been anything else (by the vets admission) to me says watch and wait, she’s not a well cat and frankly is nearing the end of her days, but she has always been kept very well and had a dental clean about 2 years prior by the same vet and really struggled coming out of the anaesthetic, as she did more so the second time round.

I would agree totally if she had a mouth full of rotten teeth and a big sore ear, but it wasn’t the case from what I saw in my position as chauffer. Haha.

It’s gotta be case by case, surely. Maybe more chicken necks and less wet food would have been a suitable course of action too?

In a lot of cases too, age does make a difference to how well procedures are handled and I think that needs to be taken into account too.

[mita]

Personally i would rather die than be left with a mouthful of manky rotten teeth why should an animal have to suffer just because they are old. ...

I have seen a 20 year old dog have a dental, it was done carefully and said 20yr old dog was brighter than ever 2 days later. Age isnt a disease and it should be used as an excuse not to treat conditions that are fixable.

I agree with you. Our little mixed breed had a dental at age 19 yrs. Healthy little creature .... this was the first veterinary procedure she'd ever had, since desexing. It gave her a more comfortable 3 more years.

Her operation was done by a university clinic vet who specialized in dental work. Seems the day before he operated on our Gran, he'd done work on a tiger at Dreamworld.

He talked about how he'd developed particular veterinary anaesthetic procedures for the more frail elderly dogs. And he'd learned these procedures from human doctors who use them on very small, very ill babies. He said his own little baby had benefited from that.

Edited November 25, 2013 by mita

[Ren]

The last vet I went to asked me the same question, three times, straight at my eyes "do you want the kennel shot too?" I said no everytime and stumbled on my words feeling patronised "I never board him, I never go on holidays or someone minds the house". I felt like I was dumb and like I missing something about this question, maybe I still am (?) but I won't be going back to him again, I thought he was rude on other regards as well.

[sandgrubber]

I use the teeth and shots criteria to choose vets. I know my two have pretty clean teeth cause they get lots of bones, and I know their vaccination histories. If the vet suggests a cleaning, or annual vaccinations, I have the cue I need to change vets. Likewise, if the vet suggests home remedies, like diluted vinegar for mild yeast infection in the ears, I figure the vet is a keeper.

[Flippy Dog]

My mother is in Canberra. Her vet is now encouraging all dog owners to have six monthly check ups from ten months of age to pick up any potential health issues and regularly sends her letters reminding her she has not been in for the six monthly check ups on her very healthy active dog. Might be fair enough in some cases to do bi-annual checks but I have read their letter and it annoyed me. Yes, some pets require more frequent checks, yes, some owners like more frequent checks because they are not as pet savvy as others, yes, some people just have too much cash and not enough commonsense but the letter just wasn't right. It felt like they were simply trying to make more money in my opinion. I also wonder if they think my retired mother is an easy target being older, or maybe as a pet lover who has spent whatever was necessary on her little dog when needed, that she would just believe them that six monthly was necessary...

I moved to the South Coast and I can say it is nice not getting the upsell anymore. Or the guilt trip they offer for free when you say no thanks to their upsell...

[Jumabaar]

Teeth go below the gum line. So what you see is not always telling the full story. http://www.vetdentists.com/consequences-anesthesia-free-pet-dental-care/

[GbDb]

Not to take away from the seriousness of the issue, but it reminded me of this.

Funny, but not too far off, actually:

[Rosetta]

That is hilarious - and pretty accurate :laugh:

[sandgrubber]

Not to take away from the seriousness of the issue, but it reminded me of this.

Funny, but not too far off, actually:

Appropriately, this add, from our local high pressure franchise vet, comes up along with this video.

...and . . . the first one's free!