Dog Behavior And Training Courses

[galaxys eclipse]

Hi all!

Just a quick question... Does anyone on here have a few ideas on the different courses offered for dog behavior and training. i have had a look at a few and have my eye on one through Precise Training but want to see if its worth doing it or doing something else

Im also talking about getting a pup to help me along the way as well as being another companion for us and my siberian husky girl

Im thinking of a White Swiss Shepherd male puppy, i havent owned one before so would be a good experience.. My siberian girl is two years old now so i would train on her when studying aswell as the puppy!

Any feedback or ideas would be great!

Thanks!!

[fuzzy82]

I did the Precise Training course, with the block training in Qld. Personally wouldn't bother, very old fashioned, they don't like reward based training (I hear the Vic block training might be different though), no mention of training in drive. All in all, VERY basic - punish what you don't like, give a treat for what you like.

And there was so much stuffing around with from an admin point of view as well, like losing my assessments and me not finding out until 6 months later, didn't receive my certificate until 2 months after the deadline they set for when the course would be finished (and I've heard of others who waited 12 months), very close minded when I tried to use logic to discuss an issue with an assessment, etc.

I've learned loads more about dog training from doing Susan Garrett's Recallers (and her other online classes) and following various famous trainers through online blogs and various online training classes (like the classes by Susan Garrett and Fenzi Dog Sports Academy).

I run my own dog training business, and I never even use what I learnt from Precise Training. Everything I use I learnt through online classes with the best trainers in the world, from research online and from books.

If it's important to you to be a certified trainer, I would do the Karen Pryor course, rather than the Precise Training course.

[alpha bet]

You could spend an awful lot of money doing courses and it lead to nothing.... better still get hands on experience first... either with a local obedience club (volunteer to help out) or with a local professional trainer (again offer to work/help for nothing)

Once you have a good idea of what is involved then consider spending the money..... after all what is the likelihood of Precision Training helping you get a job..... I suspect none.....

It is one thing to want to be a dog training it is a totally different thing to actually be one.... after all it is more than training dogs, you have to learn how to handle people....

[sheena]

I have just come back from day one of an introduction to Delta Seminar & am very impressed. I have another day tomorrow & am thinking I may go on & do their Certificate IV in Companion Animal Services. :)

[Cosmolo]

Vic block training via Precise is different to QLD- different instructors take it. The Precise training/ NDTF course can give you a reasonable foundation from which to build upon.

I absolutely agree with getting as much practical experience as you can as well.

[Tumbleweed]

Hi all!

Just a quick question... Does anyone on here have a few ideas on the different courses offered for dog behavior and training. i have had a look at a few and have my eye on one through Precise Training but want to see if its worth doing it or doing something else

Im also talking about getting a pup to help me along the way as well as being another companion for us and my siberian husky girl

Im thinking of a White Swiss Shepherd male puppy, i havent owned one before so would be a good experience.. My siberian girl is two years old now so i would train on her when studying aswell as the puppy!

Any feedback or ideas would be great!

Thanks!!

I've completely the NDTF course via distance ed (with the Vic prac) over the last year and have mixed feelings. Alot of the content was good basic foundation stuff - particularly regarding desensitisation, dog health and behaviour. The pracs were also great and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to different trainers and meeting other dog people from around Australia. I have met some amazing people through the course that I hope to be friends with for a long time.

I really struggled with the punishment side of things as that is not how I train....but I wouldn't say it is 'punishment' based training. I think what NDTF teaches is that if you are 100% sure the dog knows the exercise then it is the dogs responsibility to perform it (and that is where punishments are used). Whereas most 'positive' trainers tend to think that it is the owners responsibility rather than the dogs. For the Vic prac it did depend on what trainer you had - some never used punishment at all, and were very up to date with techniques employed by Susan Garrett, Sophia Yin etc.

The real positive of the pracs for me was the chance to train a variety of dogs and the different trainers and their approaches and experience. Police/military/rescue groups/assistance dog trainers were all represented. I'm not convinced that some of the trainers truly understand how positive based training is not permissive...but then I've since been told that WA (where I live) is a very 'positive' state, and those training methods are far more widespread and generally considered 'the norm' here.

The admin for NDTF (in my experience) left a lot to be desired. Over the months I did the course there were many admin staff changes and that really had a bad effect on the admin side of things. My advice to anyone doing the course is to keep extremely good records yourself, and keep copies of everything. Saying that, the admin staff were always very friendly and helpful whenever I spoke to them via phone or email.

My other main issue with NDTF is that I'm not sure it encourages students to think critically about the training method employed (again, some trainers did this more than others). I was told once 'remember this is the NDTF way' which, for a science person - is not an answer! I have said this to them in my latest feedback.

I did enjoy the course though - it challenged me and my training and I think I'm a better trainer for it. I has also led me having a better understanding of all training methods, regardless of whether I choose to use them or not.

Ultimately I think it depends what you are after - experience or a actual qualification. If it is experience you are after, doing online courses from a variety of places plus volunteering at a number of clubs will give you that. If you are after a qualification and some theory then NDTF or Delta are the places to go.

Hope this helps :-)

[galaxys eclipse]

Thanks heaps guys!

I am after a qualification, my goal would to be a professional dog behaviorist and possibly in the future go towards dog squad or other jobs along those lines. the list is endless for me in this factor i would also love to so assistance dogs.

I will deffinately keep looking around, if i am going to spend thousands of $$ for a course i would be to benefit positively from it and i really am not one for punishment training either!

there is a few dog training places around where i am so i will deffinately have a talk to them!

Thankyou for your feedback and suggestions!! :)

[sheena]

Thanks heaps guys!

I am after a qualification, my goal would to be a professional dog behaviorist and possibly in the future go towards dog squad or other jobs along those lines. the list is endless for me in this factor i would also love to so assistance dogs.

I will deffinately keep looking around, if i am going to spend thousands of $$ for a course i would be to benefit positively from it and i really am not one for punishment training either!

there is a few dog training places around where i am so i will deffinately have a talk to them!

Thankyou for your feedback and suggestions!! :)

This is the one I went to on the weekend...it was only an introduction to their full Cert IV course which gives you qualifications

Delta Society

Edited November 26, 2013 by sheena

[Mal1]

Hi galaxys eclipse,

I would be very selective in buying a new pup, I think its the relationship between you and your personal dog that really progresses handling skills.

Buying a pup with a pedigree that lends itself to the type of training your into be it tracking, obedience etc. will be a real asset.

In my case I have learnt a lot just raising my Malinois (now 5yrs old) really focused my efforts and opened my mind to different styles of training.

Best of luck.

[galaxys eclipse]

Yes ive gone into a lot of thought into which breed to choose for the base of the training. Having a siberian husky she is very hyper and barely keeps still when shes excited, plus she was used for sled dog racing i beleive that i have her for that series of my time and hopefully will go back to sledding somewhere next year!

I thought about getting another siberian husky but wanted more of a challenge on having two different breeds to train with, my partner wanted an alaskan malamute but they just arent what i have thought about training, them being 'similar' to siberians in the category to training and sports.

A white swiss shepherd has always appealed to me- beauty and brains... them being a shepherd ive always fantasized about training german shepherds but loving the pure whiteness of the white shepherd. saying that too, what i said before i would love to get into dog squad etc... I always wanted to have the first siberian working there but dont think thatll happen!

I've briefly read about delta society training but will deffinately look more into it!

[Tumbleweed]

Yes ive gone into a lot of thought into which breed to choose for the base of the training. Having a siberian husky she is very hyper and barely keeps still when shes excited, plus she was used for sled dog racing i beleive that i have her for that series of my time and hopefully will go back to sledding somewhere next year!

I thought about getting another siberian husky but wanted more of a challenge on having two different breeds to train with, my partner wanted an alaskan malamute but they just arent what i have thought about training, them being 'similar' to siberians in the category to training and sports.

A white swiss shepherd has always appealed to me- beauty and brains... them being a shepherd ive always fantasized about training german shepherds but loving the pure whiteness of the white shepherd. saying that too, what i said before i would love to get into dog squad etc... I always wanted to have the first siberian working there but dont think thatll happen!

I've briefly read about delta society training but will definately look more into it!

I have a Siberian I've done obedience and sledding with. It is possible, but it requires some careful selection of training techniques and honest expectations than training a more 'biddible' breed. Saying that, my second dog is an Australian Shepherd as I wanted to progress further in obedience and do agility. My Aussie still does sledding - but is not competitive against the Sibes. The main difference I find is that I don't have to constantly work to hold the Aussie's attention on me...but I do with the Siberian!

My next dog will be another Siberian and hopefully with what I've learnt about training over the last 7 years they will be able to perform at a higher level of obedience and work more reliably off lead.

We have a number of breeds in sledding in WA - including GSPs, GSDs, a Bull Terrier, staffy cross, Coolie/Koolie and Border Collies.

[Pepper21]

Any formal education is simply a foundation. I don't think that there are any courses which specifically look at a certain aspect of training - whether that's protection, sport, reactivity etc. At least, that's the case in Australia. There are only really two contenders available in Aus; Delta and NDTF.

If you're thinking about getting a bit more into some focused aspect of training, there are tonnes of courses available overseas.

- The Karen Pryor academy is largely distance, but has a few workshops which requires you to travel to the U.S. There are only a handful of trainers in Aus that have done this. I'm fairly impressed with their training skills, but less so with their people skills; they're very intolerant of people who use aversives.

- The Jean Donaldson school (Academy for Dog Trainers (http://academyfordogtrainers.com/index.html) is all distance but hugely expensive. I've spoken to one person who did this course (not distance, but actually working with Jean) and she was not very complementary of her attitude. The content was OK, but as with any distance course, you can only learn so much.

- For Dog sports, you cannot go past Michael Ellis' school. There are multiple Leerburg DVD's with him, but I personally cannot stand Ed Frawley's narration. You can't go past his workshops, I've heard nothing but good things from people who have participated. The nosework classes (done by Andrew Ramsey) are apparently incredible, as are the protection classes.

- Denise Fenzi is good too, but I'm hearing mixed reviews. I think the multitude of courses available and the easy to access format is amazing. But apparently the top level is a must in order to actually get anything out of it.

- The Tom Rose school is relatively big in the U.S. It's incredibly expensive and intensive (you live at the venue, in Missouri). I've also heard mixed reviews about this, and only one Aussie person has done the course. Forrest Micke is a graduate there, before (I think) attending Michael Ellis' school. It's apparently pretty balanced; teaching a range of training methods and letting you decide. One of the passing prerequisites is to train a dog to competition level obedience with purely positive methods. However you also have to use e-collars and prong collars for other parts of the course - I personally think this is a good idea because it lets you make up your mind about the tools and methods.

- For training dog tricks, you can't go past 'do more with your dog' by Kyra Sundance. This one sounds like a lot of fun and I'm planning on doing it with my dog in the near future :)

But of course, you can't go past an apprenticeship with a few local trainers. Or volunteering/fostering for a dog rescue.

Sorry, I didn't realise how long this post would be!

Edited November 30, 2013 by Pepper21

[Leema]

I am currently doing / almost finished the NDTF course. I wouldn't recommend it for many of the same reasons discussed. It's almost all what I learnt at dog training classes 11 years ago, and I feel like I have developed better methods since then (including through online learning).

[galaxys eclipse]

Last year i was very involved in sled racing with my sibe girl up at the southern highlands in NSW, i also was doing basic obedience with her i admit there was a lot more patience put in then normal because in sledding she was taught to pull and keep running where in obedience, well... not so much!

i will always remember the GSP's racing they are amazing, it would be fun to try it out with my new pup when it is old enough.

PEPPER21- thanks for your recommendations, helps a lot . its good to think out side the box and do a lot of research! and i am very glad that i asked everyone for their personal experience with the NDTF course!!

[gsdog2]

Another suggestion, if your thinking about working with dogs, is fostering a military working dog puppy. The Defence use GSD's (not white lol) and you get an insight into their style of training. I know this is a bit different from the above suggestions but worth thinking about :)

[galaxys eclipse]

That sounds very interesting! i've heard briefly about adopting miliary dogs or sponsoring them. will give that i look too! thanks!

[Lollipup]

I did the NDTF course in 2010. I have mixed feelings also. I did the block training in Qld, only the second block to go through qld. I would go to Melbourne if I could do it again.

The good:

- Met a lot of good people, other students which I have kept in contact with and are great friends now. Also enables me to network even further with other trainers all over the country

- Practical hands on experience with dogs. Although this could have been better

- Fairly good foundation and overview of behaviour and various training methods, depending on who you get as an instructor.

The not so good:

- They tell you to have an open mind but some of the instructors are very close minded themselves and stuck in old methods

- The admin was shocking. Really slack. Took ages and lots of chasing up to get anything done. I know of people whose assessments (video ones on USB sticks) were lost by the admin. High staff turnover.

- The dogs you work with in the Qld block have already had some training so you usually weren't getting the experience of training a dog from scratch

- The course is expensive for what you get, in my opinion

- Thinking for yourself should be encouraged but if you don't regurgitate back to them what you read in the notes, you don't pass.

- You don't get much help on setting up a business or any of that side of things, but you can get this outside of the course by talking to others who have done it

I'm curious about the Delta course but I know they are positive only so that may suit you, but for me I wanted to learn about all the methods and then make my choice and that's why I chose NDTF. There is another course which is the same Cert IV as delta but run by a different company. I would possibly look into that.

I have also heard good things about CASI which is online learning.

I recommend you get a puppy after you've done a course/more learning. I wish I had waited as there are a lot of things you can learn about how to best raise a pup for what you want. I look back and think how differently I would have raised my dogs if I had got them after I'd finished the course. My new pup has been raised very differently and for the better.

[galaxys eclipse]

Thanks lollipup!

do you by any chance know the name of the other company that is doing the cert IV?

I actually forgot to mention the most important thing i want to learn (OOPS!) is the phycology section in the whole thing!, so what is everyones thoughts on the DELTA part of that?

[Staff'n'Toller]

Whilst Delta doesn't practically teach negative reinforcement and positive punishment, you must demonstrate your knowledge of all four quadrants in assignments.

When I went through, the teachers (who were vet behaviourists) consistently said: If you're going to use punishment, you better be 100% sure the behaviour is not fear or anxiety based, and ethically, you MUST change the behaviour within 1-2 corrections from a dog welfare perspective.

Because many of the students I went through with had little hands-on experience the advice was "if you don't know what you're doing, don't meddle in positive punishment or R- if you're not sure- refer to someone higher".

Obviously there are some instances where PP/R- application might be warranted, but where you are training pet dogs there are many other options to try first, and generally much better received by the people you are training. :)

Delta was great for including subjects about OH&S and risk assessment, in regards to setting up your own business.

If you have great mentors and can gain your experience within a busy club environment, then look at CASI. If not, I would seriously look at Steve Austin's plans to offer some subjects within the qualifications framework next year- since you're in NSW.

[Aidan3]

I actually forgot to mention the most important thing i want to learn (OOPS!) is the phycology section in the whole thing!, so what is everyones thoughts on the DELTA part of that?

Streets ahead of NDTF.