Completely Befuddled - Please Help

[Hairy_Poppins]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping that someone can help me; I know that there are probably a lot of posts or questions about dog temperament issues and I have had a read through the other posts but I was hoping that someone might be able to shed some light on WHY my Pomeranian is the way she is and any suggestions that might help.

It's a long story but I will try to cut it as short as I can.

My Pomeranian Juju is an intact, 2 y.o female who seems to have either dominance issues OR fear issues. Not 100 percent sure which it is?

I have 2 Pomeranians and I treat them both the same. They both get tons of affection but I do not baby them. However both are very, very different personality-wise.

My boy, Kirby, is the sweetest loveliest, most happy go lucky little thing you will ever meet.

My girl Juju on the other hand is wary of other people to the point of lunging and barking while out on walks; not just people but other dogs, motorbikes, cats, pretty much anything.

I believe she is afraid of the unknown, but her body language does not look like fear, because her tail is not down, her ears are pricked up and she holds her head high while she lunges and barks(as opposed to tail between the legs, crouching etc.)

Other dogs she has known her whole life come near me and she growls or nips the air near their face; even my cat, which I have had longer than I have had her.

She follows me around everywhere (whereas Kirby, my boy, will often go into another room and have a sleep, or go outside and play by himself.

She resource guards me, standing between me and any other person/ dog or animal (that she knows, of course - NOT strangers, this would just send her totally mad)to make sure they can't come near me. She used to bark and spin every time my boyfriend so much as touched my head but not so much anymore.

I used to think that maybe we had spoiled her (but how can you measure this exactly), as we let her on the bed, the couch, *occasionally* on our laps, bought her loads of toys etc. (but they are always locked away in a toy box; she doesn't have constant access to them) but we have raised Kirby the same way, and he's just fine.

I'm thinking it *may* have something to do with how their lives both started out... Please let me know what you think:

Juju:

- I got her when she was 12 weeks old from a male breeder who lived alone and worked long hours, no exposure to children, etc.

- Did not ask to see (and breeder did not offer to show me) the parents. They were in a separate part of the house when I went to pick her up. (I know now that I should have but asked to see them but unfortunately like many other first time dog owners I didn't even think to ask).

- She was the last of her litter and when I met her, she ran from me and hid behind the breeder. It took days for her to come out of her shell.

- I worked 9 hour days and she spent a lot of time in her early weeks at my mum's house while I was at work, until she was about 16 weeks when I had set up an enclosed "play area" in my house where she wouldn't get up to any mischief. But still, alone by herself for most of the day. (I know, this is my fault and I wish I had known how detrimental it would be sooner)

When she was about 5 months old I was able to work from home and I could spend a lot more time with her. I vowed to take her out to see the world, meet other dogs, people etc. but she would go mental every time she saw another dog, I mean, completely ballistic, so I got so embarrassed that I began to walk her at odd times or in odd places so she wouldn't come in contact with other dogs (I know this was the wrong thing to do as well)

Kirby:

- I got him when he was 8 weeks old from a family breeder with young children, who lived on a farm with 4 other dogs - 2 large breed and 2 small breed

- I met both parents when I was there and they were both very friendly and outgoing

- As soon as I met him he ran straight up to me and wanted to play, he wasn't shy at all.

- At this point I was still working from home so he spent a lot of time with me and also Juju, so whenever I did have to leave the house he always had company

So you see both of my furry kids had very different starts in life; Kirby is very well balanced, Juju is verging on psychotic. I feel for her so much because she's always so alert; whenever we go on walks her eyes are darting everywhere, she's not relaxed at all; it's as if she doesn't even enjoy leaving the house.

As for her behaviour, here's what I've noticed:

- On walks she's constantly on edge

- Seeing another person/ dog/ animal sends her into a barking frenzy and if I'm walking both dogs together, she will turn on Kirby and start attacking him

- She resource guards me constantly

- She follows me absolutely everywhere (I can't even pee alone. When I close the door she goes mental)

I know a lot of people say that if a dog acts like this, it means they think they are the leader of the pack. However, Juju does what I ask her to do when I ask. For example:

- If she jumps on the couch or bed without first being invited, I say "Off" just once, and she hops straight off

- She is rarely ever allowed on my lap. When she is tired or calm, I will invite her up for a short while before setting her down again (just for a little affection).

- When I tell her to sit, stay, come, "No" etc. she always does so

- When I feed both my dogs, they must wait until I give them the signal to approach their food, which is sometimes up to a full minute. Neither dog will move until I give the signal.

- Her toys are all locked away and I don't leave food and treats just lying around the house

When we are on walks and she sees another dog and goes mental, I have tried:

- Treats to distract her (once she locks on to her "target" the treats have no effect whatsoever. I could be holding an entire turkey in front of her and she wouldn't care)

- Making "Tsst" noises and touching her in the side

- Telling her to sit and blocking the view of her "target"

- Giving a quick yank on the leash to distract her.

- I have tried walking her on a harness, until someone said this gave her too much power, so I switched to a choke chain, until someone said this encourage aggressive behaviour, I tried a Gentle Leader until she went so crazy she managed to squirm free and ran away.

I'm so confused with the methods of training; I don't know what to do any more.

I'm at my wits end because I don't know if her behaviour is fear based or dominance based.

I have read that methods like Cesar Millan's can bring out aggression in dogs instead of curbing it, but at the same time, if she IS being dominant and not fearful, what is positive reinforcement going to do?

I'm sorry for the long post, it ended up being a lot lengthier than I had intended.

I was just hoping someone could shed some light on to what they think *might* be going on so I can choose the right training method.

I'm going to recruit the help of a professional but there are 2 very different schools of thought when it comes to behavioural training and I don't want to damage her even more or risk making her more aggressive if one of the methods is not the right one for her.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this post, any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Novella

[Nekhbet]

The right training method is what works for the dog :) I can tell you that it's not uncommon in Poms for this behavior to crop up, mums is similar and he's happy to bite (rescue ... don't ask)

I think your problem more stems from allowing the behavior to roll on and skirting the issue. She went ballistic, so you removed her from the situation instead of confronting the behavior. So, she learned act like a loon and you will make that thing go away. Whatever her reason for disliking things I don't know because I cannot see the dog :p But from the others I have seen it's down to an overactive guarding behavior they have and they're loud about it!

The best method of it is to teach her how you want her to behave. You need to find something that is highly rewarding be that affection, food, toy etc and use it as a lever. If she's not food driven then don't feed her unless you're out for a walk... leverage. Hunger will take over. It's about retraining her, you dont behave like X you behave like Y and I will heavily reward you for it. The tricky part is the pom is a tiny dog that cannot really tolerate a physical correction like most other breeds so you have to be quick and outsmart the dog. If she wants to go ballistic walk her up and down until she focuses back on you, then reward. Dont want to walk? Pull her by a harness until she follows. Don't be embaressed she needs distance exposure and she has to get over it. When she's ready to listen she will be rewarded, until then we march up and down like crazies :laugh: Tiny dogs like poms cannot go into head halters and correction chains they have no muscle around the neck to cushion so a plain harness is fine. Looks embaressing, yes, but it will work. It's about persistence, they're tenacious little dogs so you have to be patient.

Run me an email if you like, and some videos too and I can get you a bit of a plan going for her :) [email protected]

[persephone]

:) you will do well following nekhbet's advice .. I have nothing worthwhile to add !

( is busy imagining a ballistic little pom , though.... )

Hope it gets sorted soon.

Edited November 23, 2013 by persephone

[Guest donatella]

Welcome hairy poppins, your 2 sound exactly like my 2 Poms except I have 2 girls. My first and eldest girl Lucy is dominant and doesn't like strangers or strange dogs and she's very protective of me and her territory but she's very loving to people and the dogs she grew up with. I wouldn't trust her around kids though as she's never really taken a liking too them as they're a bit too much for her.

Bonnie on the other hand (my younger one) loves anyone and everyone who will pat her, strangers, kids, babies you name it she is just so gentle and has never done anything but lick. Her and Lucy are polar opposites and she often gets picked on by Lucy if she even tries to take a dominant role in any situation.

I hope you have some success with Juju (i'd love to see pics) there is a whole lot of personality in these small little turds

[Hairy_Poppins]

Thank you so much for replying everyone!

Nekhbet thank you for your advice, I think you were spot on when you said the right method is the one that works for the dog.

I guess I was just afraid of going wholheartedly into any "type" of training because I was afraid that it might damage her even more, but yes, keeping her sheltered isn't going to make the problem go away, but... it is really embarrassing, haha!

You are so kind to offer to help personally, I might shoot you an email a little later today if that's ok; I have been hoping to get some video footage of Juju when she goes off so I might do that this afternoon when we go out, maybe recruit the help of my boyfriend.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links here but I read a really funny article the other day entitled "How to live with a dog-reactive dog and not lose your s**t"

I'll post the link but I'll take it down if link posting is not allowed.

I have personally done all the things on the list, especially the bit about pretending you're a ninja. :laugh:

http://bullinthecity.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/how-to-live-with-a-dog-reactive-dog-and-not-lose-your-shit-an-impractical-guide/

Donatella you are so right, Poms are so full of energy and I love it, they all have their own personalities, I guess I wasn't taking that into consideration when I looked at Juju vs Kirby because they have both been brought up in the same environment...?

But I suppose two children raised by the same parents don't necessarily turn out the same so by that token, why wouldn't they be different?

I'll post some pics soon, do you have pics of your babbies I could see? :)

I'll keep plugging away with Juju, I'll try to live through the embarrassing moments and just keep reminding myself that it's for the greater good.

Do you think I should walk her and Kirby separately until she shows signs of improvement, so that he doesn't have to deal with her little freak outs when we're walking? I just feel for him, he's so besotted with her, he'd probably let her chew his ear of and he'd still be crazy about her, bless him.

[Guest donatella]

My Lucy sounds very similar to your Juju so I have no training advice cause she's just as naughty and sounds like she came from a similar situation. She was second last in the litter of 4 the breeder kept 1 so when I met her and picked her up she had a mate to play with. I got her at 12 weeks and I remember meeting her and she ran to me and my friend and was very outgoing pup. The breeder worked 9-5 though and the pups were kept in the garage during this time so I think that could have affected her during crutial development time. She is very independent though and sleeps by herself even though she has free reign to my bed, she listens to me and is highly intelligent and picks up tricks in a few minutes. She does what she wants though until I tell her to stop. She was a terrible chewer as a pup but doesn't touch anything these days. Oh she's 2 years old now.

Now Bonnie came from a litter of 2, raised indoors with kids from birth and she had a brood of about 8 poms. I met them all and mum and dad. Mum and dad were so friendly and dad was a champion show dog. She had that warm family environment from birth and even though I got her at 12 weeks she has never done anything but lick and is constantly complemented on her sweet nature.

I would never buy from a Lucy breeder again seeing the difference in the 2. I guess you have the same experience? I have often thought about a trainer for Lucy but I don't walk mine because I fear off street attacks so it's mainly dealing with her going bonkers at strangers in the home I deal with but I have learnt that getting the person to ask her to 'shake' or 'high five' (which she loves doing because she's a bloody show off) and she's their new best friend and won't leave them alone so that's how I manage her at the moment. Not the greatest or most professional advice sorry :laugh:

She is suss of men more then women for some reason too

Now for photos, I don't have any good ones as you know these beasts don't sit still for long haha

Lucy evil child

Bon my sweet baby lol

And to prove they do hang out when it suits them

[BC Crazy]

Beautiful Poms Donatella. My favourite one is dear little Bon with the lovely baby. So sweet :)

Sorry HP am of no help as I have had no experience with SWF's but I do have my hands full with a very reactive BC

so I totally sympathize with you. Nekhbet is very experienced, you are in very capable hands there.

Edited November 24, 2013 by BC Crazy

[RuralPug]

You have nearly answered all your own questions in that first post!

Nekhbet can give you the correct guiding advice that will give you the confidence to retrain her.

To respond to your queries about why your two are so different, puppies are born with their own temperaments but early nurture and socialisation are what determine just where on the bell curve of behaviour within that temperament type that each puppy will end up. So the different upbringing would have had a huge effect on them and the lack of early socialisation in her case is a large part of her current problem behaviour.

You also ask if her behaviour is fear based or dominance based. Firstly, those two motivations are not necessarily exclusive - any given dog can be motivated by either at varied times and occasionally both together! Secondly, based on your description of her behaviour, I'd say that most of it was anxiety based. In my opinion, most resource guarding is anxiety based. A confident, untraumatised dog does not fear the loss of the resource (having said that, refusal to share food is not, in my opinion, resource guarding - it is most often just plain healthy greed ). Not every one will agree with me, that's okay. They are allowed to try and convince me otherwise and vice versa.

Re the breed comments, I can also share a recollection. A friend in Canada who is a dog trainer/behaviourist of many years standing took and retrained dogs as a foster carer for rescue. A Pomeranian, Lola, that came to her as a foster stayed as a foster failure. She did agility, obedience, tracking and I think flyball successfully with her, but Lola was ever unpredictable and could launch into aggression against humans (including her owner trainer!) and other animals with very little provocation. Most of this was because at some stage before she came into rescue all her warning signals became suppressed.

Lola (RIP) was affectionately known in training and rescue circles as "The Death Pom".

[hankdog]

Your Pom sounds very like my bulldog, just better looking. The distraction that worked for him is a jar of peanut butter, you just have a centimeter smeared around the inside, just before he sees something you basically shove it right in front of his face. Initially I came home with some mangled jars, he once popped the bottom out of a jar he bit down so hard. He then took to licking it like an addict almost as if it was his security. Treats were too hard with him, he would just bark them out but the peanut butter works on so many levels, not least of which is it glues their tongue up.

You're right in staying away from a "type" of trainer, I've done the rounds and its quite sad to have your dog condemned repeatedly.

At the moment I'm following the logic of obedience training that we are gradually doing closer to dogs and testing dogs as another distraction. If she's good at learning tricks then she can hopefully learn to ignore distractions just as she learns all her tricks. Good luck, I'm sure Nekh will give you some excellent tips.

Feel free to join the reactive dogs thread. On bad days its nice to have people who've been there abc understand.

Edited November 23, 2013 by hankdog

[teekay]

Yep, head on over to the reactive dogs thread. Lots of info and support on there :D

With regard to walking with your other dog, I wouldn't. While you are working on Juju's issues I think it would be better if you could give her your full attention. I am not a trainer but I can tell you what has worked for us with my reactive Aussie Shepherd. Admittedly by the sounds of things he was not as bad as Juju.

We have worked with a combination of LAT, BAT and counter conditioning. I won't go into what all those things are but you can Google or do a search on here.

I would suggest you work at a distance from the distraction. Once the dog has reacted, you are too late to work with any treats toys etc ( as you have found) you need to move further away.

With Luka I took him to a park with an off leash secured area so I could control the distance between him and the other dogs and found the distance at which he noticed them but I could still get his attention. So he would see them, I stop and wait for him to look back at me, lots of praise and or treats then did a 180 degree turn and walk a distance away. Rinse and repeat :D

I did the same with dogs behind fences. Approach and wait, treat, walk away.

We do still have a problem walking past dogs with their owners ona walk but Luka is a work in progress. :)

I also cannot recommend Steve Courtney at K9 Pro highly enough. Lots of people on here have been to see him including me and the feedback is always positive. If you could get to see him I think it would definitely be worth a trip.

Good luck with you little firecracker, as Hankdog says lots of sympathetic ears on the reactive dogs thread :)

Edited November 24, 2013 by teekay

[Nekhbet]

I know full well the tenacity of a pomeranian ... when one is attached to your boob ala police dog style you learn how quick and how confident they can be ... 10 year old dog with some teeth missing too O_o I tell you if they were about 25kg they would wipe the floor with a lot of guarding breeds

[hankdog]

Ouchie, I hurt thinking about it!

[Hairy_Poppins]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for all the replies, I never would have imagined that all of you would be so willing to help, so thank you, I really do appreciate it. :)

Teekay I will definitely head over to the reactive dogs thread to do more research and also Google the methods you referred to in your post.

I think the suggestion about working from a distance is a great one; funnily enough, I have noticed if we are walking *towards* people who are completely stationary (for example people sitting or standing at a bus stop) she doesn't care. We can get as close to them to point of her sniffing their feet and she won't react.

However, if I am chatting to someone who is standing still, and they so much as raise their hand to brush some hair behind their ear, she goes crazy. Also if people are walking *towards* us (even if they are very far away). Something to do with the movement might be threatening to her?

Haha peanut butter, actually hankdog, my little one LOVES peanut butter so it may work, the "mouth getting glued", haha that made me giggle! I think what I'm getting wrong is the timing. I try to distract her once she has already seen the "threat" so by this time it's probably game over.

RuralPug, I think Death Pom would be a good nickname for Juju but to me she's known as the storm in a teacup, pocket rocket, Cujo or sometimes just little s**t. :laugh:

Donatella your babies are gorgeous!!!! Bon is so tiny, she's like my little Juju except Bon has a much sweeter face than my baby girl.

Juju has a foxy type face like Lucy, in fact they could almost be sisters in terms of facial structure.

I have added some photos of my little ones. All the photos of Juju are pretty crappy because she never stands still for long enough!

The ones of Kirby were taken about 6 months ago, he was just a baby then. :)

He's going through his puppy uglies at the moment but he's still my beautiful little man.

Juju "laughing", with my bf, & in her Thundershirt at the park:

Kirbykins on a play date at his doggie friend's house (the owner had a camera so took some snaps while he was there) :)

[Guest donatella]

So gorgeous!! Yes ours are very similar Lucy is very fox in face and Bon very teddy bear face.

Lucy likes good looking young men too

[Hairy_Poppins]

Lol! Little tarts.

[Guest donatella]

Haha totally!! Floozies :p