Qld Police K9 Puts Handler In Hospital

[Santo66]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/police-dog-bites-handler-during-beach-scuffle/5107264

Here is a good one after a recent thread where people were discussing the safety of protection trained dogs, what type of character in the dog is required for the job and how they should behave. In this instance the dog re-directed off the offender and onto the handler in an apprehension fight These people training working GSD's and Malinois who are essentially pets in personal protection thinking it's cleaver and safe and bragging about their ability to do so, need to take a reality check of what there are creating

[Rosetta]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

[kelpiecuddles]

I don't understand, do you have further info on this from elsewhere? It doesn't say anywhere in that article what the circumstances of the bite were, just that he was bitten, he may well have stuck his arm in front of the dog not using his head and the dog may have thought it was the offender. There's any number of other ways it could have happened that don't involve the dog actually deliberately turning around to bite his handler. Unless you have some other source that explains what happened better?

[Rosetta]

It wasn't deliberate according to the TV news reports.

[dogmatic]

Amazing how the story can be approached from totally different angles:

Police jump into surf to make dramatic arrest of man at Schoolies week beach

Queensland police dog bites officer in surf

Seems there was quite a struggle to arrest the man.

[Santo66]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

[Staffyluv]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

It can happen in the fray with any dog and any handler in lots of situations..

Redirection isn't an uncommon trait in dogs.

[dogmatic]

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

Thanks. Please keep us informed if any more news comes to hand. By the sounds of it, a very brave dog and handler.

Edited November 21, 2013 by dogmatic

[Santo66]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

It can happen in the fray with any dog and any handler in lots of situations..

Redirection isn't an uncommon trait in dogs.

Correct it can and when people are protection training pets and teaching them to fight, their vulnerability for suffering re-directions in the fray is much higher than the average pet owner who's dog may only encounter a serious scuffle once in a lifetime if at all.

The point of reference is for people in belief that protection training dogs means super safety, clarity and control where the dog is supreme in discrimination. As in this case, a dog trained in protection who can do the job when keyed up to fight are dangerous, they can re-direct, they can bite the wrong targets, they can get out of control quickly in the fight.....protection training pets needs to be met with extreme caution is what I am getting at.

[pepe001]

Watching these idiots on the news last night made me so angry. Expecting a dog (any dog) to take down a man in pounding surf where it is swimming and the handler and man are fighting while trying to stay upright in waist height water with a helicopter light shining down and waves washing over everyones heads. That is unfair expectations on a dog wether it be very well trained or a liability that miss-directs its aggression easily. It would also be an unfair expectation of any of the other pplice to not connect with other cops in the rediculous situation they put themselves in. The dog should never have been sent in there. If you haven't seen the footage - find it - just lunatic use of a dog-resource and bad decisions. I'm glad the idiot handler got hammered - maybe he will rethink his abuse of his dogs skills in the future.

[Boronia]

Here is a Channel 7 video for those who may have not seen it

http://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/video/watch/19954696/cop-bitten-by-dog-in-dramatic-arrest/

would the dog have been on his long lead? just wondering as it looks as if he has gone into the surf of his volition , maybe he couldn't hear his "wait" instruction over the noise of the surf.

[Santo66]

Here is a Channel 7 video for those who may have not seen it

That's actually a very good dog to be able to work in such a difficult environment where the majority of dogs would have backed out of that in the surf and would be an intense dog who could handle that amount of pressure.

When the handler came onto the beach from the water, the dog was lighting up in a big way where the handler was starting to choke him out of the attack to regain composure, there was no simple command and the dog relaxed, he was ramped in fight.

From an earlier thread about supposed protection trained dogs who can bite a sleeve or suit in prey drive and maintain composed obedience, dogs like that won't protect for real outside of a training scenario...exactly what is seen with this police dog is the intensity required in a dog for real protection work that can be relied upon to do the job beyond all else.....unfortunately dogs like that are not the best company at a family BBQ without extreme vigilant management.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Santo66

[dogmatic]

thanks for the footage. certainly raises a few questions about the dog's involvement. plan 1, 'a bit of a spray', might have been more appropriate.

[mita]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

Good on you, Rosetta, for setting the record straight. The whole business was captured on film It was thigh-deep in pounding surf. In the night, only lit up by a police helicopter hovering above..

The dog handler & 2 other officers (who jumped from their jet ski) were wrestling with a huge offender who was throwing punches viciously. He'd already defied police for a couple of hours & was determined not to be taken down.

So with 3 officers & the police dog struggling in pounding surf in poor light ..... all in a heaving mass of bodies.... the dog latched on to the wrong limb. It was not a focused attack on its handler. If it'd been a few inches in another direction, it would've been the out of control offender who would've been bitten. And the dog praised for doing its job.... as it was primed for 'work'.

Pepe, I have to disagree with you, especially calling the officers names... 'idiots'. The police had been trying to hours to get this bloke. They didn't choose the circumstances he fled to. They did their best in a rotten situation....

[bertie]

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

Good on you, Rosetta, for setting the record straight. The whole business was captured on film It was thigh-deep in pounding surf. In the night, only lit up by a police helicopter hovering above..

The dog handler & 2 other officers (who jumped from their jet ski) were wrestling with a huge offender who was throwing punches viciously. He'd already defied police for a couple of hours & was determined not to be taken down.

So with 3 officers & the police dog struggling in pounding surf in poor light ..... all in a heaving mass of bodies.... the dog latched on to the wrong limb. It was not a focused attack on its handler. If it'd been a few inches in another direction, it would've been the out of control offender who would've been bitten. And the dog praised for doing its job.... as it was primed for 'work'.

Pepe, I have to disagree with you, especially calling the officers names... 'idiots'. The police had been trying to hours to get this bloke. They didn't choose the circumstances he fled to. They did their best in a rotten situation....

Thank goodness for you two.

[megan_]

Santos plenty of police dogs live with their handler's families and their kids. They know they are not working and don't attack the kids at random.

[moosmum]

"Personal" protection is... personal. There may easily be a different set of criteria for choosing a purely "Personal" protection dog over a purely working dog.

Discernment would be one of them.

To me, a dog bred for police/security/defence force etc is not the same, though they can and do often serve both purposes.

I don't see a working security type dog with protection training as the same as a "personal" protection dog.

A dog who will bite in offence is not needed.

My choice in a personal protection dog would be one I can safely take into any situation,or else its most likely going to be locked away when I need it.

[BlackJaq]

Police and PP work are by far not the only times when a dog in high drive may redirect at its handler. Happens a lot with gun dogs who are either poorly trained or poorly controlled or simply of very strong temperament.

Pretending like training a dog for PP will make it more likely to redirect on the handler is ridiculous, especially when this was obviously an accident where the dog was likely aiming for the offender, not the handler (hence it was not even really redirected, just an unlucky miss).

Not sure what point is being made here, it certainly isn't the point that OP is attempting to make.

[dogmatic]

Not sure what point is being made here, it certainly isn't the point that OP is attempting to make.

look, i totally agree. as long as your point of view is not the same as the op, everything's fine and dandy. :p

i think i see the op's point of view. i've been mugged a few times. my gsd has been ineffectual as deterrent and as defender. disappointed, but, in hindsight, probably the better outcome. i'm the pack leader and i was bloody ineffectual too, and my training emphasis has been at the opposite end of the spectrum. what should i expect.

on the other hand, if i was deliberately putting myself in harm's way for the benefit of the community, i'd like to be able to look at my dog as a loaded gun, and i was taught to treat every gun as if it was loaded.

at the same time, i'd hope that any handler of such a weapon was very well trained and cool-headed. i don't know how much onus should be placed on a dog to discern by itself. some, i assume. i admit to knowing very little of pp dogs.

as an aside, the only time i've had problems with my gsd biting me or other family members is when they try to grab us by the arms and drag us out of the surf - they think it's far too dangerous for us. probly right. :)

[Rebanne]

looked to me that the dog followed his handler in to protect him. He was a long way behind his buddy at the start.