Games For Soft Mouths

[Guest hankodie]

My GR puppy Hank is loving playing games as a reward at the moment when we train. There's just a tiny problem - his mouth is so soft he can only hang onto the tug very lightly before letting go after a few seconds. It's not a big deal but our games do tend to get silly fast because he'll only hold on for a few seconds before letting go (and then proceeds to dance around) :laugh:

I've tried a few different things including letting him win but he still doesn't quite grip the tug very hard when we play. Does anyone else have this problem with their dog (mainly retrievers/other soft mouthed breeds)? Is there a different game you play with them or is there a way I can train him to bite down a little harder when we play?

[huski]

Hey HO, what kind of tug or toy are you using?

Sometimes if we make the game more exciting and add a bit more frustration that can help get him gripping the tug a bit harder.

[Guest hankodie]

Hey Huski, I actually bought the puppy starter kit from k9 pro for him! He's not very interested in the leather tug, sometimes I can get him excited enough to hang onto the linen one but he mostly only loves that fluffy colourful prey toy which is what I've been using :laugh:

I'm a bit used to a rougher game of tug with my bulldog who loves to bite down and hang onto just about anything.

He's quite a lowish drive dog but lately he's been much more interested in playing games so I'm just trying to take advantage of that for our training sessions :)

[The Spotted Devil]

The gundog mouth can be a bit softer - after all that's what we want when they are working!

It has taken quite some time for my Springer to really enjoy tug - she has a very soft mouth and I am told the lips of the field-bred dogs tend to fall on their teeth which makes it harder for her to get them out of the way and tug properly. She likes the very soft, furry type tugs and we only play briefly before launching into something like agility training. Obviously I don't play tug around retrieving training :laugh: I have noticed in my puppy games classes that the Golden puppies aren't into tug anywhere near as much as the other dogs.

[huski]

Hey Huski, I actually bought the puppy starter kit from k9 pro for him! He's not very interested in the leather tug, sometimes I can get him excited enough to hang onto the linen one but he mostly only loves that fluffy colourful prey toy which is what I've been using :laugh:

I'm a bit used to a rougher game of tug with my bulldog who loves to bite down and hang onto just about anything.

He's quite a lowish drive dog but lately he's been much more interested in playing games so I'm just trying to take advantage of that for our training sessions :)

The puppy prey toy is really popular!

If you could video one of your sessions with him and post it here, you might find posters are able to give you better tips on the game you are playing.

Does he like playing with or chasing balls? What is his food drive like?

[persephone]

..I'm sure you can play/teach him things without tug :)

[Guest hankodie]

The gundog mouth can be a bit softer - after all that's what we want when they are working!

It has taken quite some time for my Springer to really enjoy tug - she has a very soft mouth and I am told the lips of the field-bred dogs tend to fall on their teeth which makes it harder for her to get them out of the way and tug properly. She likes the very soft, furry type tugs and we only play briefly before launching into something like agility training. Obviously I don't play tug around retrieving training :laugh: I have noticed in my puppy games classes that the Golden puppies aren't into tug anywhere near as much as the other dogs.

Hank loves the furry tugs too! Must be a gundog thing :laugh: I'd love to try our hand at agility but I think we have to wait until he's fully grown. He's a bit uncoordinated at the moment!

The puppy prey toy is really popular!

If you could video one of your sessions with him and post it here, you might find posters are able to give you better tips on the game you are playing.

Does he like playing with or chasing balls? What is his food drive like?

Just recorded a quick video while we were outside - I'm surprised, he actually did a little better this time so maybe he's getting better at it! I don't know if you can tell but I'm not tugging very hard at all. I have to move the toy quite fast because if I try to move it slowly and build it up he loses interest/doesn't quite know what to do. Also this is a little tamer than usual - he had a big morning down at the beach so he's a little tired :laugh: He's really into the prey toy but won't really do this with any of the other tugs (which my frenchie loves)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-leUE5bQQU

Oh and he's not really into chasing balls sadly he will fetch a stuffed toy/anything soft but can't seem to get him to chase balls. As for his food drive, it'ss good but it's pretty even all around - he's happy to get treats, happy to get pats, happy to play, just happy in general :laugh: like I said he's got a lowish drive which I don't mind but I'd love to build on it if we could!

..I'm sure you can play/teach him things without tug :)

Oh definitely Perse! Just wanted to hear from other gundog/retriever owners about what kind of games they get their dogs to play :)

[Kavik]

He's giving you nice weight shift!

Nitro is improving with his weight shift, better with some toys than others, but with some toys (like the one you are using) he likes to shake/kill it instead and he regrips more than I would like.

[Guest hankodie]

Thanks Kavik! I can't seem to get him to grip on the tug unless it's something he can chase first (like the toy in the video). I pull out a normal looking tug and he just stares at me lol. I've tried teaching him "take it" but he's very reluctant about biting down unless he gets to chase it first!

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks Kavik! I can't seem to get him to grip on the tug unless it's something he can chase first (like the toy in the video). I pull out a normal looking tug and he just stares at me lol. I've tried teaching him "take it" but he's very reluctant about biting down unless he gets to chase it first!

Nothing wrong with chasing I always play keep it off with Em and bash 'em ups and feral growling too :laugh:

[LisaCC]

Thanks Kavik! I can't seem to get him to grip on the tug unless it's something he can chase first (like the toy in the video). I pull out a normal looking tug and he just stares at me lol. I've tried teaching him "take it" but he's very reluctant about biting down unless he gets to chase it first!

Nothing wrong with chasing I always play keep it off with Em and bash 'em ups and feral growling too :laugh:

We love feral growling here! Especially trying to get him to tug out and about, GRRRRR!

Hank is looking gorgeous as usual

Edited November 20, 2013 by LisaCC

[Daisy.Tea]

Like a lot of people here strange growling sounds seems to be a common thing. We do it too! I spend a lot of time teasing with the toy and building excitement for it.

[Guest hankodie]

Hahaha I love that everyone else does the growling thing too :laugh: Hank's only just starting to growl during games with me so I like to egg him on!

Nothing wrong with chasing I always play keep it off with Em and bash 'em ups and feral growling too :laugh:

Haha I'm thinking I should get a flirt pole so we can play some more chasing games, he loves it! Though I wish I could get him to roughhouse a bit more but he is too much of a gentle goober :laugh: every time he watches me roughhouse with my frenchie he intervenes in a panic

[huski]

I would definitely look at a flirt pole to speed him up and build some more drive. Every dog enjoys different things about playing tug. Some dogs prefer the chase element, some dogs really want to thrash around on the toy. I think you'd get more drive from him if you make the tug game shorter and build more excitement in the chase. Be careful not to play too long, even a 30 second game where he is left wanting more is good, you want to build his drive and desire for the game, before adding duration.

[BC Crazy]

I am no expert hankodie but my boy is very soft mouthed as well. What really improved his tug skills & increased his drive was to run around with the tug toy & verbally encourge him along the way. Move rather quickly & erractly change direction keeping him engaged.

We also are big flirt pole fans here. Both mine absolutely love it. You don't have play very long as they are totally focused & they are on the move. I always quit with them wanting more :)

Edited November 22, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

Thanks Kavik! I can't seem to get him to grip on the tug unless it's something he can chase first (like the toy in the video). I pull out a normal looking tug and he just stares at me lol. I've tried teaching him "take it" but he's very reluctant about biting down unless he gets to chase it first!

Bitework tugs can be difficult for some dogs to understand. Remember a prey reward item is something you condition the dog to SEE as an object to use to gain reward between yourself and the dog. You can buy all the stuff in the world but as you see, he's running on instinct as to what is comfortable for him to gain reward through. Drive towards objects are built, you condition the dog through training to see the object as a potential prey item. That goes for everything from tugs, toys to a human being depending what you're training.

We have bred dogs with modified forms of the prey pattern which is stalk - chase - catch - kill. Retrievers have the chase - catch modified to make the dog enjoy running out after the birds and modify the catch to be soft. Herders on the other hand have the stalk - chase component upped and the catch - kill component almost gone from them.

Tugs too can be confrontational for dogs to use. It's why you start and build them up, many dogs can find the resistance of a tug toy too much for them and spit it out or not grip. Perfectly normal, there's nothing wrong with your dog it's genetics is going WHOAH YOU'RE SQUISHING THE BIRD! whereas the soft, thin stuff is really easy and light. I start with polar fleece as its easy to grip, no funny taste and little resistance so it's super easy and super fun for the dogs not bred for that.

The one thing you dont want to encourage too much of is thrashing. Thrashing too much is an erratic behavior. It's a dog that's trying to make the prey item move to incite further prey drive within itself - and it means it's attaching the reward value to the interaction between the toy and itself, not the toy and YOU which it's meant to be about. It's why your dog also took the toy and went away from you putting it between it's paws. The game is toy - dog, not dog - you. The toy should have stuff all value if you're not using it to interact with the dog.

[BC Crazy]

Very interesting post once again Nekhbet. I love you insight into different aspects of training.

So true about the herding breed. My 2 BC's both love tug & yes they both have the stalk/chase thing going on & the catch.

I do own the game though. I start it & I finish it. Then the toy is put away. They leave the toy & restart the tug game first time

they are asked to. Mine do tend to thrash their heads about a bit if I let go of the toy & they still have it in their mouth.

Is that in effect a "win" for them is it? Should I not let that happen too often?

Edited November 23, 2013 by BC Crazy

[RiverStar-Aura]

It was suggested to me to use a velcro pouch or the likes in order to teach Zeus to tug at agility training. He's part beagle and definitely prefers the chase over the tugging aspect of play so I was told by using a velcro pouch, I could put treats inside and that it would hopefully encourage him to want to interact with the toy. He could also then be rewarded for playing tug a I could very quickly rip open the pouch treat him then snap it closed -- if he was too slow in putting his snout in the pouch to pull out a treat before I'd closed it, then he'd miss out that round.

I never did get around to trying this to see if it worked as I changed agility clubs due to me being unable to make the classes.

[Nekhbet]

Mine do tend to thrash their heads about a bit if I let go of the toy & they still have it in their mouth.

Is that in effect a "win" for them is it? Should I not let that happen too often?

Thrashing is the dog trying to regain prey movement in the object to keep themselves stimulated an increase their drive. Remember, prey drive can be a bit like a drug ... once they learn how good it is they want more and more, so the dog will thrash on the item when you hold it still in order to keep the 'game' going. If you watch protection videos you see some dogs when they grip will thrash when the decoy is motionless, like 'come on you bastard get moving'. The minute the decoy does move you see the dog go in again harder as the movement has taken the prey on an upward peak again. Extreme example but easy to find on the interwebs :p

If the dog has the toy and thrashing that's self satisfying behavior. That's meaning a 'moment' for lack of the better word between the dog and the prey item. You're not in the picture. So don't let the dog go self reward if you want it to be obsessed over the game with you ;) otherwise it's only the object and that makes your progress slower.

Drive training is nothing more then using a conditioned object to help the dog be better rewarded FROM you in a manner it inherently understands. Saying prey in dogs is better then food is not true. Food is still a drive, and in some dogs a higher drive then prey objects. I still use food for fine tuning and luring the dog, especially when we're trying to get super tight positions then when it's conditioned switch the dog to prey IF that's what it has also concurrently been built on, or loves anyway. I find it very effective and also the dog won't come down from it's prey peak, as prey drive peaks and drops much faster then with using food.

I've used food for training a couple of dogs for agility. Then I make the owner be super duper happy and excited and running through to get the food and a super happy excited reaction from the owner works :) My school does lazy agility too, we have taught the dogs the equipment so the owners don't have to run around too much :laugh: they point and command dog does it. Some of the clients cannot run that fast but the dog can, why miss out :laugh: not for comps just fun stuff but it works

Edited November 24, 2013 by Nekhbet

[BC Crazy]

Thanks for your reply Nekhbet. Makes perfect sense what you are saying. My boy is funny he loves tug games & we play for a while then if I let go he will thrash a bit then without letting go of the toy , come straight back to me & place the toy in my hand or at least try too. So I think he gets that the game just won't happen without me :)

Edited November 27, 2013 by BC Crazy