New Puppy Mayhem

[Salukifan]

Ok thanks. The breeder I spoke to tonight on the phone said that we are not to give her anymore attention. The treats and the praise are to stop. He believes this could possibly have been what caused this type of behavior. He said whilst we were trying to stop the bad behavior by stopping her from biting us, ripping the lounge etc, and redirecting her elsewhere. and treating the stopping, we were rewarding her for bad behavior and encouraging her all the more. He said when she is in the crate it has to be somewhere separate like a garage and to try it tomorrow in daytime to not disturb the neighbours, and leave her in there for up to 3 hrs as she will be safe.

He also suggested us going to the vet and getting some tablets to use occasionally so as we can have her sleep and we also get some sleep. I am not mad about this idea and would prefer to probably not try this approach.

Anyway tomorrow is a new day to start afresh.

I think this will fail dismally. Get a trainer in. What she needs is boundaries, training and attention on your terms not hers.

Physically isolating her will not help. Its one thing to pop her in her crate and go about your business and another to send her to isolation as management.

Somewhere in between catering to her every need and ignoring her there is an acceptable and appropriate manner of dealing with this canine whirlwhind. A decent trainer will help you find it.

[persephone]

Somewhere in between catering to her every need and ignoring her there is an acceptable and appropriate manner of dealing with this canine whirlwhind. A decent trainer will help you find it.

[wuffles]

Just one point. We are still working on getting my pup to settle, some days we are successful and some we are not. Gotta take the good with the bad! But if we bring the treats out (even kibble) to reward calmness it puts him way over his excitement threshold and we have no hope of calming him down again. So every time he lies down or does something that resembles calm, he gets a slow, deliberate pat and a quiet "gooood boooooy". Your voice and body language can make a big difference.

Last night he was in the lounge with us for 30 minutes, couldn't settle and ended up over his threshold, so he had to go back in his pen for everyone's sanity (where he fell asleep within 5 minutes mind you).

With the pen (attached to a crate), we started out putting him in there with something entertaining and we would sit a few metres away doing our own thing (laptop, book, etc). He was getting company but not active attention. Then we'd start to move around and do the chores or cooking, so we'd be with him intermittently but not constantly.

The idea of a trainer sounds good, as I am a relatively experienced dog owner and my pup is still pretty tough going!

[tikira]

for being committed and willing to try anything.

Take a deep breath and relax, this stage will pass, she is still a baby. The trick is getting out of this stage with your puppy still with you, and your sanity reasonably intact.... Good luck

What is working with our 18 week old mouthing machine is "time out" He loves being with us, but does use his puppy teeth. We squeal, we growl, and he still comes back for more (it is helping though, finally). So we put him in the closed up hallway for a minute. He calms down, we let him out- he bites again, he is put back for another minute. Whether it is age or training, it is working for us. We deliberatly don't crate or play pen him for punishment, we don't want him to associate these with punishment, but we do want him bored and safe! Well puppy proofed bathrooms could work too!

The advice given by the DOLer's is really good, but you know your puppy, so choose what you think will work in your situation, but be consistant, and be more determined than puppy. Perhaps talk to your neighbours and explain why puppy is screaming, most people understand if they know it is for "the greater good".

We use treats a lot for our dogs, and they thrive on it. Treats/food in their crate or playpen (ours is wire netting around the dining room table, and a dog door access to outside deck and grass. He loves his "bedroom" as he gets all good things in there, and now begs to be allowed in for his fav toy or treat.

But treating the good behaviour have to be given in the split second she does the right thing, maybe analyse whether you are accidentally treating the wrong behaviour, and that is where someone who can watch your interactions can help.

We crate trained by putting puppy in the crate with a bone/kong, and we slept on the floor next to him, touching him through the bars when needed. This calmed him to sleep. We did this for several weeks, so we could hear him when toilet was needed. Right now Jingo is chilling in his day crate right next to me at the computer. While researching crate training and crate games I saw a video on crate training by a vet who actually put the crate on his bed next to him, and slept with his fingers in the crate- I guess he didn't have a partner though!

The point here is "do whatever works for you and your puppy" and I feel a trainer is a great idea, well done for taking the step.

I look forward to more updates, we do mostly all feel the way you are right now, it is natural, as your whole way of life is in the process of changing- for the better in the long term :D

Di

[Tassie]

Agree with what HW and Persephone have said - and lots of good advice from people facing or having faced similar issue.

The breeder's advice rings alaarm bells with me - certainly not the way I would want to go about things for a pup you want to be a part of the family. Also, in terms of finding a professional to help you with in home training, I'd just caution against anyone who seems to be offering a quick fix - as people have pointed out - there isn't one.

One of the tricky things I think you have to do (and it will be hard) is to try to model calm behaviour for the pup ... the sort of thing that wuffles is describing. If you get agitated and high pitched, you can be sure the pup will too.

There are some good tips on the Dog Scouts of America wwebsite - including 10 tips for changing any problem behaviour

[Mogda]

Ok thanks again everyone.

Wow I have to say my head is reeling with information, and completely confused how I got to hear with trying to train our pup and be a responsible pet owner!

From the moment the pup stepped into our house she was given love but disciplined every time she tried to bite or tear into things like furniture clothes cupboards, feet, shoes etc. I went onto websites and saw how to reprimand and reward which I then did consistently. With toilet training I put the paper at the front door near to where she would be going out to eventually, and she shredded it over and over again. I stopped the paper. I took her out as suggested on toilet training websites; after sleeps/naps, playing, meals and circling and sniffing, and stayed with her. I sat with her and waited she would play and sit and sit but not go. I have spent up to an hour waiting for her to go. I went back on to training website and it said take her out give her 10 minutes, do not play just stand in the spot where you want her to go and if she doesn't go bring her back in and then take her out again in 5 minutes which is what I did. That wasn't working so I went back to just waiting out there with her. Rarely she might go but it was more incidental than successful. 5% of the time she would go outside but it would be purely incidental. 95% of the time she would go the moment you took your eyes off her for a minute when you were back inside. And yes I had to take my eyes off her for a minute just to do something small like putting the kettle on as I was spending probably half of waking hours, or more going out and coming in to go back out again.

This has all added up to apparently creating a naughty dog acting like a princess. I have not for one minute doted on her I have shown her kindness but firm discipline. She has never been allowed to bite people, tear furniture or eat the cupboard doors, but she does. I have tried yelping, using marking words, rewarding, providing plenty of toys for play and distraction, ignoring her when demanding, plenty of outside play time. Socialisation with others. Safe places to sleep and play.

I knew when I decided and purchased her that it was a big responsibility and it was important to be prepared to put the effort in, it wouldn't be easy but something you have to do to be a responsible owner and to make a good dog. This is what I thought I was doing.

After this post I am finding a number for a trainer and that's where I am at.

When I get a chance again I shall take some photos to include.

[tikira]

It does sound like she is on the "more difficult" end of the scale, but hang in there.

We got Jingo at 9 weeks, and at 18 weeks he is still not understanding toilet training, sometimes he "gets it", but he has made too many mistakes recently, and is refusing to go outside, so hence he is in his crate until he needs to go toilet.

We have had to go back to basics. It is frustrating, it is annoying, and I do feel like crying at times, but I remember that he won't be trustworthy for a long time yet.

One day at a time, and celebrate the small wins, you are doing a good job.

Di

[Justrace]

I highly recommend getting in contact with Steve from K9 Pro. What you are describing is my Murphy as a puppy, he's now 11 months and we just got back from a "holiday" to work with Steve. I only wished that I had of gotten in contact with him earlier.

[Nic.B]

"With toilet training I put the paper at the front door near to where she would be going out to eventually, and she shredded it over and over again. I stopped the paper. I took her out as suggested on toilet training websites; after sleeps/naps, playing, meals and circling and sniffing, and stayed with her. I sat with her and waited she would play and sit and sit but not go. I have spent up to an hour waiting for her to go. I went back on to training website and it said take her out give her 10 minutes, do not play just stand in the spot where you want her to go and if she doesn't go bring her back in and then take her out again in 5 minutes which is what I did. That wasn't working so I went back to just waiting out there with her. Rarely she might go but it was more incidental than successful. 5% of the time she would go outside but it would be purely incidental. 95% of the time she would go the moment you took your eyes off her for a minute when you were back inside."

You will hate me :laugh: though I see this as a great opportunity :)

Perhaps take her out regularly (as you are already doing) though if she doesnt toilet outside and she toilets immediately once inside this is a perfect chance to correct/guide her.

Once she has been out and you bring her inside, do not take your eyes off her for a second (if you need to boil the jug and make a coffee before you take her out).

Watch her for signs of toileting and the moment she starts to circle,sniff etc take her outside again and wait. Repeat again and again and reward afterwards.

Using a cue like "quick, quicks" helps, along with taking her into one area to toilet.

It can be a pain short term though it works with consistency.

Please dont take anything people are saying personally, you are doing a great job. We have all been there and done that so like to offer our own experiences to help others. Trust me, you have access to some brilliant trainers and behaviourists here :)

Pic's would be great, then we will all oh and ah over the little monkey pants :laugh:

[Mogda]

thanks.

Happy to do that with toileting and couldn't care less if I mop up a hundred times a day. The toileting was more just a training thing for her to know where to go.

The biting and ripping and crazed running around is definitely something I feel quite worried and frustrated about. That's where I am confused now . . .do I continue with the pulling her off things and then rewarding her when she stops, or is that what I did wrong, and encouraged her to keep doing that to seek and gain the reward?

Or. . .

Do I pull her off the item, or the person, or push her off my leg/trousers/shoe/foot and just say a very angry and determined no, or growl or yelp or bang a paper against the wall, like the breeder suggested?

The biting is sharp and hard and very aggressive when she is in one of those spur of the moment crazy periods she has. I have tried taking her outside and distracting her but it continues and last night she added this horrible vicious sounding growl to her list. . and she meant business. . she had the leash in her mouth pulling it and biting madly as she growled very loudly and seriously. eventually I rolled her over onto her back in the submissive position, as the breeder says he does with his pups, but it made no difference.

This aggressive behavior is a very big concern for me because she can hurt and it may not be only me that she hurts; what happens when shes bigger.

I have put in a message for the guy from K9pro website to contact me re puppy training help.

She is asleep just now in the crate she has been awake since 5.15 and was very tired. She was not happy and thrashed, cried , howled and barked. I just kept popping my head around the corner where she couldn't see to check she was alright. She eventually slowed down and dropped off to sleep. She is in the crate in the room next to me now.

I will try for a pic of her later. I am going to head downstairs while shes asleep to the clothes line super quickly to put out a quick load of washing that's been waiting since last night

Thanks for the encouraging ideas.

[Leah82]

Yay! congrats on getting her to fall asleep in the crate

Don't forget to celebrate the small wins :D

[Nic.B]

thanks.

Happy to do that with toileting and couldn't care less if I mop up a hundred times a day. The toileting was more just a training thing for her to know where to go.

The biting and ripping and crazed running around is definitely something I feel quite worried and frustrated about. That's where I am confused now . . .do I continue with the pulling her off things and then rewarding her when she stops, or is that what I did wrong, and encouraged her to keep doing that to seek and gain the reward?

Or. . .

Do I pull her off the item, or the person, or push her off my leg/trousers/shoe/foot and just say a very angry and determined no, or growl or yelp or bang a paper against the wall, like the breeder suggested?

The biting is sharp and hard and very aggressive when she is in one of those spur of the moment crazy periods she has. I have tried taking her outside and distracting her but it continues and last night she added this horrible vicious sounding growl to her list. . and she meant business. . she had the leash in her mouth pulling it and biting madly as she growled very loudly and seriously. eventually I rolled her over onto her back in the submissive position, as the breeder says he does with his pups, but it made no difference.

This aggressive behavior is a very big concern for me because she can hurt and it may not be only me that she hurts; what happens when shes bigger.

I have put in a message for the guy from K9pro website to contact me re puppy training help.

She is asleep just now in the crate she has been awake since 5.15 and was very tired. She was not happy and thrashed, cried , howled and barked. I just kept popping my head around the corner where she couldn't see to check she was alright. She eventually slowed down and dropped off to sleep. She is in the crate in the room next to me now.

I will try for a pic of her later. I am going to head downstairs while shes asleep to the clothes line super quickly to put out a quick load of washing that's been waiting since last night

Thanks for the encouraging ideas.

You are in good hands with K9pro, it is great you have touched base.

Pushing her away when she jumps up is probably a reward for your puppy. A game if you like, simply put you are better off turing away from her and offering no contact (even when she jumps) at all rather than pushing her away.

Pour your heart out to K9pro and let them know that you are finding this very difficult.

I am sure they will offer some solutions to assist you and your sons puppy short term.

You know what I think, I think your puppy will be a model canine citizen in no time as you are a commited dog owner.

I bet we see pics of her batting her eyelids and looking like an angel :)

ETA I would not ignore or tolerate biting at all. 'Jumping up' was just an example.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Nic.B

[Tassie]

Bearing in mind that we can't see the pup ... but it would seem to me that she's getting far too many chances to keep practising behavioiurs you don't want. Don't forget that to a busy puppy, any attention (even if we think it's not "good") - can be reinforcing behaviour. She's getting your attention and she doesn't care how she does it. Since she likes to play rough (and maybe her littermates or mum didn't help her to learn not to do that) she finds it quite rewarding when you play rough - then she'll play roiugher still. And some of what the breeder is suggesting, is IMHO, not going to help you build a good relationship with the pup.

K9Pro is in Melbourne at the moment, I think, so may be a little while before he gets back to you. My advice in the short term would be to put the pup away every time the behaviour starts to get out of hand. That could be outside or in her playpen. Try to say to yourself something like - "too bad, time out" as you do it, so that you're remaining calm.

My boy came with pants tugging firmly in place - took a few weeks of an interrupt sound like "Uh-uh" and distracting him immediately with a legitimate chew object - tug toy, or inside from paper towel holder or something. You need to engage them with that - play tuggy with them for a couple of minutes, then let them take their 'prize'. Rinse and repeat.

Have you tried the longer lasting chew things for her - frozen chicken wings - frozen stuffed kongs, anything safe (not rawhide, for preference) that will keep her occupied for a while - and give you the chance to get some stuff done, and let her learn that good things happen while she's being calm - non-stop action is not necessary :) .

[Nic.B]

Frozen treats are also great to entertain and stimulate. You can feed part of her meal this way.

You will need to stick with her same diet and perhaps add gradually to it as she is only little.

I still feel like I hold a kindy class with my own dogs and they are 15 years, 12 years and 4 years. A puppy is not on the cards at all lol.

Bandits!

[Salukifan]

thanks.

Happy to do that with toileting and couldn't care less if I mop up a hundred times a day. The toileting was more just a training thing for her to know where to go.

The biting and ripping and crazed running around is definitely something I feel quite worried and frustrated about. That's where I am confused now . . .do I continue with the pulling her off things and then rewarding her when she stops, or is that what I did wrong, and encouraged her to keep doing that to seek and gain the reward?

Or. . .

Do I pull her off the item, or the person, or push her off my leg/trousers/shoe/foot and just say a very angry and determined no, or growl or yelp or bang a paper against the wall, like the breeder suggested?

The choices you have are to interupt the behaviour and deflect it into a more desireable one or to deter it with the use of an aversive.. or both.

She sounds like a tough nut but remember she cannot bite or scratch anyone she can't reach. I think in such cases a "time out" works quite well. The lesson she has to learn is that "when I do this, I don't get the result I want".

The biting is sharp and hard and very aggressive when she is in one of those spur of the moment crazy periods she has. I have tried taking her outside and distracting her but it continues and last night she added this horrible vicious

sounding growl to her list. . and she meant business. . she had the leash in her mouth pulling it and biting madly as she growled very loudly and seriously. Eventually I rolled her over onto her back in the submissive position, as the

breeder says he does with his pups, but it made no difference.

It sounds like she was playing. Some pups playing sound like they are killing each other .. or whatever they have. But you need someone to see it to know for sure. Your breeder's advice just got the "discount entirely" label from me for the alpha roll he suggested you do. That's dark ages training and it doesn't work because what's going on isn't about dominance.

This aggressive behavior is a very big concern for me because she can hurt and it may not be only me that she hurts; what happens when shes bigger.

Without the correct training, which includes bite inhibition, she'll be worse... which you have clearly understood.

She is asleep just now in the crate she has been awake since 5.15 and was very tired. She was not happy and thrashed, cried , howled and barked. I just kept popping my head around the corner where she couldn't see to check she was alright. She eventually slowed down and dropped off to sleep. She is in the crate in the room next to me now.

Compared to yesterday, this is BIG progress! She was put in her crate, she didn't kill herself in there and she stayed in there! My guess is that everytime she goes in there now you'll see less and less tantrums. Toss in a toy, or someting nice and chewy like a chicken wing and you can have some time to yourself!! Resist the urge to tip toe around the house and take her out and stay out there when she wakes until she 'delivers' - and that's one less accident and one more positive behaviour she's learned. :)

ETA: Remember to feed and reward in there. My youngest dog rushes into his crate when dinner is served and also takes his "treasures" in there to destroy play with. :)

Edited November 21, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[RiverStar-Aura]

You should be so proud of yourself that you've managed to get your pup to settle -- their crying and thrashing does tug the heart strings but waiting it out is all you can do. She sounds like she's already starting to improve with the crate just keep it up. The thing to remember is to never let her out whilst she's carrying on! Good work!!

I just thought with the toiletting although Nic B did mention it too... If she's only going once she comes inside then why not trick her. Take her out to toilet then if nothing, bring her in. 5 minutes later just take her straight out again (or even go in then back out immediately).

If it was me, I'd just sit outside until she goes, even if it takes hours!! Puppies are all about the waiting game and it's a matter of who's more determined at winning waiting it out.

You're in good hands with Steve (K9 Pro) -- don't hold anything back because trust me, he understands and needs to hear your thoughts. I can vouch for him being a client of his myself!

The best advice I have is to always be willing to learn WITH your dog for the rest of her life. Dogs are a learning curve, much like kids, and as long as you're willing to go on that journey with them then you'll have the best relationship you could hope for!

[Cosmolo]

There is one key concept you do need to keep in mind- the puppy dictates what is an effective reward or correction. I understand that you feel you have been consistent in providing both of these things but chances are you've not actually been effective hence your lack of results.

You will only reinforce a behaviour if you deliver what the pup wants at that time- something they desire. This is why food rewards can be so effective because puppies tend to be hungry often. Removal of the reward at the moment the pup does the wrong thing can be effective to correct a behaviour like jumping up for the food reward because the pup gets the opposite of what they want.

A correction is only effective IF it stops the behaviour at that time AND reduces the likelihood of the behaviour occurring in the same situation in the future. If you correct and the puppy continues mouthing they are telling you that either-

Your timing was poor- ie the behaviour had been happening for a number of seconds prior to the correction. Mouthing is self rewarding and so timing is of critical importance.

The level of correction was too low- I'd be almost certain this is happening with your puppy and what happens as a result is that you actually accidentally increase the intensity of the behaviour. You need to be careful with physical aversives for this reason- someone will likely need to show you what level of correction would be required if you are scruffing, grabbing the pups collar, trying to hold the pups mouth etc. Time outs can be effective but usually take more repetitions for the puppy to understand than something that is instant.

The type of correction was not appropriate- eg using a water spray for a pup that loves water.

Continuing to deliver ineffective corrections will make the situation worse and may be the reason why you feel as though all of your efforts have yielded little result.

I am happy to email you through our puppy training booklet if you want something to start you off before you see K9 Pro. [email protected]

[JessicaM]

I'll add my 2 cents opinion too. I have a 11.5 week german shepherd puppy, she is full on and I also have a small papillon which is a toy dog.

Mia has been with me since 8 weeks, we went away on holiday for 1 week and continued our training.

Mia used to bite which is NOT acceptable, I grabbed her snout instantly when she did it and pushed her to the floor and growled and yelled NO! Enough to worry her, I am so firm with puppys because I do not want it to escalade... I only had to do this several times and she has not done it since. The only reason I am this firm on her is her personality I can be 'mean' to her and she wont get scared of me. It is hard to explain but your pup sounds FULL ON you need to assert you dominace with it. I do the same thing when she jumps on me and grabs items she shouldn't have. (She gives the items to me now but after a week of being super firm with her)

My pup lives outside most of the day and the first nights she cried and and screamed so I squirt a water bottle of water and vinegar at her, it works so well when she is naughty. Wish you the best

[Mogda]

Thank you to you Cosmolo and to you JessicaM. I have not been rewarding her with food today as I too felt I must have been doing it incorrectly. So each time today she has gone back to the lounge to tear the fabric or bite more of the kitchen cupboard door I have just called her name loudly and said no in an extremely firm tone. I then call her to me and give her lots of praise pats. I have found if I say "good girl" she looks for food treat and then goes back to bad behavior.

When she ripped the lounge previously I would say no very loudly in a growly firm voice to her straight away when she first grabbed the fabric until she stopped and then tell her to sit say good girl and give her the food treat. She would eat the treat and go straight back to chair and grab the fabric. This process continued. The same happened when I was teaching her not to jump up and bite me when I was sitting with her. I would push her down whilst saying her name and telling her to get down, . . when she would drop back down I would say good girl and give her a food treat. . . she would continue the process so much so that sometimes she would only even pretend to jump and then look at my hand for treat.

What should I have been doing differently Cosmolo as I was catching her straight away, reacting immediately to deter her with name, voice, give reward and praise after stopping, but instead it just encouraged her to keep going "good girl" was the cue for her to eat and then do it again

JessicaM I have previously tried the water spray but she just tries to eat it and seems to get sillier.

She has been very tired and lethargic this afternoon as it has been extremely humid here, and I don't think she likes the heat. I took the opportunity this afternoon whilst she was snoozing to lay down on the lounge near by her and had 30 minutes as I think the last 10 days have caught up with the both of us.

Cosmolo your training booklet would be much appreciated.

Appreciate your time guys.

Mogda

[*kirty*]

Its OK to put her outside for a minute and have a break! Or give her a big meaty bone or treat ball to distract her outside while you do other things. She sounds like a very full-on little pup but she doesn't need 24/7 attention.

Her crate should be for calm time. My pups sleep in their crate right next to my bed at night. I get up once or twice during the night for toilet breaks, and then its straight back into the crate. During the day they have naps in the crate too. She needs to learn that screaming and carrying on will not get her anything. It will be hard for the first week or so but if you tough it out, it will be worth it. Good luck!