Recall And Punishment

[dogmatic]

I understand perfectly, owning a dominant reactive dog myself. He has some dog aggression tendencies in fact, not fear based.

You simply sound like you know nothing about how to deal with and re-train a reactive dog, which is a shame for your dog. Of course you cannot distract her. she does not give a shite what you are doing because her behavior is self rewarding and you obviously cannot compete with it at all.

Oh! Dear! What can I say? Thanks for the intelligent response? I'm not looking for advice, but I can understand how easy it is for everyone to give it.

...

Now come on "behaviourists"... any other advice?

My comment there was actually tongue-in-cheek, in case you didn't notice.

And thank you, we're doing fine, without interference from Back-Yard-Behaviourists.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dogmatic

[BlackJaq]

I have not actually given any advice?

[hankdog]

LBD I wonder if some dogs are more prone to superstitious learning and if it goes with the type of temperament that develops phobias.

Jake is smart but seems to develop superstitions. I set up a little "agility" course around our garden. One of the obstacles is a fixed rock bench. After about 5 goes over two weeks I had left a wheelbarrow in the way of his approach to the bench. about 10 meters away. He could not make himself deviate from the normal course. It was impossible for him to step around the wheelbarrow, I had to lure him around it with a jar of peanut butter. He loves to do this activity but became very stressed and afraid. Each time he stepped off the normal course he was crying and would step back and stare and bark at the intruding barrow.

His reactivity looks to me very similar to a person with a phobia and when we tried operant conditioning with him he learned to run away more successfully than he learned to calm in the dogs presence.

As a rescue I can't know why he became reactive but I think he is a naturally anxious dog that probably had one bad experience coupled with being impounded and separated from his mate and that's been too much for him. Such a pity because he's so smart and with careful management could have been a great sport or obedience dog.

If anybody ever has a problem getting your dogs attention try shoving a jar of peanut butter over the bottom jaw whilst they're barking. Works on smell, taste and you just can't bark with your mouth gummed shut with peanut butter! Has been the saving of Jake.

Edited November 19, 2013 by hankdog

[Steph M]

That's very interesting, Hankdog.

Almost like a learning disability might present in people too. Inability or unwillingness to deviate and accept change.

Must be a clever guy though!

[The Spotted Devil]

Also remember that a lack of appropriate socialisation during critical periods can manifest as a strong fear or phobia :)

[Weasels]

Interesting Hankdog - I guess think of it as a combination of temperament and inadequate early socialisation as TSD said, with the importance of each varying depending on the dog. Some dogs even with a perfect life are just wired maladaptively, and some dogs have just been so badly treated it's broken them, and there's everything in between. In Weez's case i do wonder if early desexing played a part too, and a bit of testosterone might have helped!

[raineth]

Also remember that a lack of appropriate socialisation during critical periods can manifest as a strong fear or phobia :)

Yes, in my limited experience, rescue dogs who haven't had great socialisation seem to lack the resilience of a dog that has. So that when something bad does happen, it seems to affect them a lot more.

[dogmatic]

LBD I wonder if some dogs are more prone to superstitious learning and if it goes with the type of temperament that develops phobias.

Jake is smart but seems to develop superstitions. I set up a little "agility" course around our garden. One of the obstacles is a fixed rock bench. After about 5 goes over two weeks I had left a wheelbarrow in the way of his approach to the bench. about 10 meters away. He could not make himself deviate from the normal course. It was impossible for him to step around the wheelbarrow, I had to lure him around it with a jar of peanut butter. He loves to do this activity but became very stressed and afraid. Each time he stepped off the normal course he was crying and would step back and stare and bark at the intruding barrow.

His reactivity looks to me very similar to a person with a phobia and when we tried operant conditioning with him he learned to run away more successfully than he learned to calm in the dogs presence.

As a rescue I can't know why he became reactive but I think he is a naturally anxious dog that probably had one bad experience coupled with being impounded and separated from his mate and that's been too much for him. Such a pity because he's so smart and with careful management could have been a great sport or obedience dog.

If anybody ever has a problem getting your dogs attention try shoving a jar of peanut butter over the bottom jaw whilst they're barking. Works on smell, taste and you just can't bark with your mouth gummed shut with peanut butter! Has been the saving of Jake.

Every dog I've owned has developed a quirk or "phobia" at some stage, usually when young. An enduring memory of our first GSD is her irrational response to a squeaky floor-board (and the stupid encouragement of this behaviour from us kids, I'm rather ashamed to say). More recently, on night walks, my younger one would go nuts at a piece of rubbish that had blown into someone's yard and wasn't there the night before. She'd be spooked at meter boxes, garden gnomes, shapes behind trees, everything! Her reaction would sometimes have me ducking for cover - "What is it!?" My older one had a phobia after my MIL moved a small figurine in the garden. Remembering the behaviour of our first GSD and her eventual fate, I approach these phobias with caution - certainly no encouragement of an irrational response. More like leadership. I go up to the meter box and put my foot on it and urge her to have the same approach "It's OK. Nothing to be afraid of", etc. Hope I'm not sounding like a BYB, but that's what I do.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dogmatic

[Santo66]

We have the great benefit of a large semi-rural off-leash area.

So often I see other dogs bounding up to mine and their owners yelling their heads off to try and get their dogs to come back. I don't particularly mind over-exuberant dogs and it gives me an opportunity to test my own training skills with my dogs. However, when those other dogs do eventually return to their owners, their owners invariably give them a good thumping.

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

Return to handler of their own accord should always be a pleasant experience for the dog regardless of what the dog did previously as they live in the moment. Punishment applied is at the wrong end, if they are going to apply punishment is when the dog attempts to bolt with a leash correction then reward for not bolting. A dog is not willingly going to recall to face a good thumping although plenty do it, it's a stupid practice for attempt at training recall.

[dogmatic]

We have the great benefit of a large semi-rural off-leash area.

So often I see other dogs bounding up to mine and their owners yelling their heads off to try and get their dogs to come back. I don't particularly mind over-exuberant dogs and it gives me an opportunity to test my own training skills with my dogs. However, when those other dogs do eventually return to their owners, their owners invariably give them a good thumping.

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

Return to handler of their own accord should always be a pleasant experience for the dog regardless of what the dog did previously as they live in the moment. Punishment applied is at the wrong end, if they are going to apply punishment is when the dog attempts to bolt with a leash correction then reward for not bolting. A dog is not willingly going to recall to face a good thumping although plenty do it, it's a stupid practice for attempt at training recall.

Thanks for getting this topic back on track.

IMHO, you have stated what all dog-owners ought to know.