Recall And Punishment

[BC Crazy]

Giggle hankddog. Jake is a smart boy alright. Stella does exactly the same thing. She pretty much demands a treat when she hears any motor bike that vaguely sounds likes the posty as I have been using LAT with her to stop her trying to chase him. Same goes for mowers,whipper snippers, birds. She is by no means backward when it comes to letting you know just how good she can be. When she wants to that is LOL :)

[dogmatic]

How to control an "over-obedient" dog? :) I have no idea, but it seems the balance can be tipped too far in either direction. It made me think of overly submissive dogs. Quite often the owners get just as annoyed as the owners of overly dominant dogs.

Yesterday on our off-leash walk we had a tricky situation. While I said earlier that my stop command is less formal than the formal obedience commands, I discovered that it does need to be resolute. A moment's hesitation and all could be lost.

There are a pair of medium-sized dogs that we sometimes see. One of them, I have never seen off the leash, but I know of one case were it was off-leash and was a serious problem with another dog.

Up ahead, I saw one of the pair and assumed it was the friendlier of the two. I didn't see the owners, but knew they couldn't be too far away. I issued the stop command, and both my dogs responded well. I always leash my younger dog when there is another dog on a leash, as a courtesy and just to ensure there is no interaction with a leashed dog. As I was about to leash her up, I saw the approaching dog lower its head and speed up. It was almost upon my older dog who was less than ten metres from me. I still didn't see the owners of the other dogs, and a terrible thought came into my mind, and I hesitated putting the leash on the younger one. In a flash she was racing at the other dog and there was a skirmish between my younger and the other dog - grappling on hind legs, flashing teeth and growling. Fortunately I was close enough to quickly step in, get the attention of my younger one with a yell, and command her sit. Everything was instantly calm, except for the owners of the other dogs, restraining their problem dog and calling the other who was by now standing calmly by my side sniffing my older dog.

In the brief minute between my younger dog taking off and making contact with the other dog, I think I yelled every command I knew, and probably a few other words as well. :)

My stop command is casual in the sense that I don't care what the dog does so long as it stops - it can freeze, turn to me, come to me or roll over, whatever the dog feels is appropriate. The problem yesterday was that my younger dog knew that the stop command was issued so that I could put her on the leash, and she's happy with that. But I hesitated - rightly or wrongly - and lost control of the situation in an instant. Incidences like those - even though harmless in the end in this case - make me wonder if off-leash exercise is all worth it.

At the end of the walk, we encountered a pair of robust dogs who regularly accompany their owner on a jog. They have never been a problem - happy to come up and say hello, but much more intent to keep up with their owner. I've rarely heard the owner speak except to say "come on" to his dogs who would then turn and follow him. Nevertheless, my younger one is still reactive toward them. When I saw her start to react, I calmly said "stop" and was so pleased to see her freeze, turn her head to me and even wag her tail. Of course, lots and lots of praise. I'm hoping in the end that she will learn to judge the circumstances on her own.

[hankdog]

That's the crux to me, I don't want my dog to be submissive and I'm not good at being dominant. I want him to learn to use his judgement and make the right decision. The right decision being to ignore the distraction or return to me or anything except react. I've succeeded in getting a small amount if brain function and turn to me. How much can you alter a basic personality though? I also wonder if there's certain dog/ owner personalities that work naturally well together?

Edited November 18, 2013 by hankdog

[BlackJaq]

That's the crux to me, I don't want my dog to be submissive and I'm not good at being dominant. I want him to learn to use his judgement and make the right decision. The right decision being to ignore or return to me or anything except react. I've succeeded in getting a small amount if brain function and turn to me. How much can you alter a basic personality though? I also wonder if there's certain dog/ owner personalities that work naturally well together?

It sounds to me a bit like you don't actually know what you want your dog to do? When he uses his own judgement he is reactive. That is presumably why you have retrained him. He is now acting the way you trained him to react.

Yet you do not seem happy with this? What exactly do you want him to do? You can't blame him for attempting to gain a reward? Any dog willing to please will do this.

In your situation I would be glad that the dog now places more value in you and your treat than in the reaction he has toward other dogs.

If you want him to do something else, teach him what you want. Maybe now that you can gain (and hopefully hold) his attention in such situations you might like to consider doing some kind of training when there are other dogs around. This should help teach him to simply ignore their presence and carry on with whatever it is you want him to do.

Training will distract him from the other dogs but also from the reward he is trying to demand (I believe you mentioned letting him lick peanut butter or something for the duration of the other dog's presence?). I would see this as an opportunity to begin weaning him off this crutch and teach him some more normal behaviors (like ignoring, if he is unable to learn friendly interaction). Surely this would be more relaxing for you as well as the dog since another dog's presence will become a non-event, rather than a huge flurry of activity either way, each time another dog is present.

A dog need not slink around or crawl on his belly to be "submissive". Yet he needs to submit to your commands, i.e. be obedient, otherwise your life with him may become rather unpleasant (and I assume his reactivity was unpleasant to you or you would not have worked to correct it, therefore you obviously want him to submit to your requests after-all)

Edited November 18, 2013 by BlackJaq

[hankdog]

I guess what I really want is for him to be a "nice" dog around other dogs. He's such a sweetheart when no dogs are around but it's Jekyll and Hyde with him. Too much to hope for I know and he's done so much in trying to understand and do what I want.

I suppose I've been lucky that my previous dogs have been sensible, enjoyed their training and sort of naturally respectful without me having to put in to much thought as to who is running the show. Getting a challenging dog who has so many contradictory traits is certainly confusing. I expect if I was a naturally dominant person our partnership would be a lot less work for me.

Edited November 18, 2013 by hankdog

[BlackJaq]

I guess what I really want is for him to be a "nice" dog around other dogs. He's such a sweetheart when no dogs are around but it's Jekyll and Hyde with him. Too much to hope for I know and he's done so much in trying to understand and do what I want.

I suppose I've been lucky that my previous dogs have been sensible, enjoyed their training and sort of naturally respectful without me having to put in to much thought as to who is running the show. Getting a challenging dog who has so many contradictory traits is certainly confusing. I expect if I was a naturally dominant person our partnership would be a lot less work for me.

I see where you are coming from but sometimes we just need to accept our dogs for what they are :)

I don't know the reasons for his reactivity, as you know they can range from temperamental faults, to bad experiences or a combination of factors.

If your dog is happy not interacting with other dogs (or perhaps only unknown dogs?) then you may just need to be happy with this, too. In my experience, dogs that are outright dog aggressive do not usually miss the company of other dogs. They tend to prefer their people.

Dogs that react from fear are often very stressed and scared in these situations, even if they act aggressively and offensively (rather than defensively). It is a kindness to teach them how to avoid these feelings and replace them with neutral and good feelings instead (sometimes these dogs will never get as far as interacting with another dog without the fear and stress, but sometimes they can become familiar enough with another dog or dogs to overcomes the negative feelings and enjoy the other dog's company, but not usually strange dogs).

Some dogs may become reactive due to owner reactivity. I'm not sure exactly how to explain this very well, but an owner can make a dog anxious about other dogs, or even purposely train the dog to reactivity (as is often done in fighting dogs who have no true dog aggressiveness). This kind of conditioning can be hard to overcome or may not be able to be overcome at all.

The list goes on and I do not know what kind of reactivity your dog displays. You would probably know best so I think you will need to recognize what will actually make your dog happy and then live with that. Having a reactive dog behaving in a neutral manner around other dogs is a pretty big win in my book, so that is what I would aim towards, at least to begin with. I know that it is nice when your dog plays well with other dogs but not all dogs are made this way (or life changes them to a point where they no longer function this way) and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as long as the dog has someone or something to interact with and be close to. They are social animals, but the emphasis on the need for a canine pack is simply overstated sometimes (in my personal opinion), and this can push owners of dogs who are different to expect the need for doggy friendships as "the norm", when really it isn't. Not for all dogs, anyway.

Edited November 18, 2013 by BlackJaq

[dogmatic]

We I was younger we had a very protective German Shepherd. She could be in a room with people, but she was extremely alert and watchful - it was intimidating to friends and visitors. I recall seeing her overtly aggressive toward a visitor on only one occasion - even then it was just a warning shot, but enough to make the knees turn to jelly. In later life she had a traumatic experience - we sent her away, which to an extremely loyal faithful and protective dog can be heartbreaking. When she return after almost a year, she had gone right over the edge and became a danger. Her daughter who we kept was the complete opposite with pretty much the same upbringing as her mother. She was the type of dog that people would cross the street to come over and pat. I only saw her snap once - in later life when a strange child thought she could ride her like a horse. Her snap surprised me but still didn't deter the child!

So, I don't believe that temperament is entirely hereditary. A lot of people do.

I do believe that a dog's personality is shaped very early in life. At least I'm working on that idea. My younger one had a very unfortunate experience almost her first step into the outside world away from her birth kennel. Later, as soon as I could take her for walks - after vaccinations - I discovered that she had an intense attack-first-ask-questions-later approach to everything with four legs. At just four months, it was frightening and relentless - hackles up, fast as lightening, snapping around the hooves of horses, pinning little dogs down with snarling teeth, taking on everything. Almost a year of weekly obedience classes did little to improve the situation except she learnt the commands. She became a highly-reactive obedient dog?! At the same time we were taking her to the well-populated dog-park on a daily basis. It was my first experience at the dog park. In the beginning, while I'm trying to keep her calm on the lead so that she wouldn't attack, she was attacked by other dogs. Anyway, we persisted, and under my very watchful eye she made friends with other puppies, and she was easily distracted with her ball when a newcomer arrived at the park. It's amazing, though, how she remembered those attackers from her first times at the dog park. They disappeared for a long time, but returned when she was almost eighteen-months old. When they tried their confrontational antics again with her on the lead as soon as I had walk in the dog-park, I let her off. She was no longer a little puppy. It's the only time I have felt overjoyed at seeing her skittle a pack of dogs - m@ngrels! A confidence-building exercise. :)

Our main activity is our long daily walks out to the fields and forests. The older dog has been on the walk almost every day for thirteen years. For her sake, it's something I won't give up. And it's basically the only exercise I get too. The older dog has only ever had one serious incident - even then it was only serious because the other dog over-reacted by locking its jaw onto her cheek. After we managed to unlock the jaw she was still up for some playful argie-bargie, and the other dog was happy to join in. That's always been her approach even under the most threatening circumstances. It quickly becomes a game of "let's see who can mount who".

It's the younger dog's initial reaction that is the problem. I believe it is a fear that came very early in life that will eventually be overcome with her increasing confidence.

[Steph M]

So, I don't believe that temperament is entirely hereditary. A lot of people do.

I do believe that a dog's personality is shaped very early in life. At least I'm working on that idea.

Of course, you can't kick a dog with parents who both had amazing tempraments and expect it to never react. Makes perfect sense to me that external stimulus plays a huge part in mental development, the same way it can physically affect development too.

I discovered that she had an intense attack-first-ask-questions-later approach to everything with four legs. At just four months, it was frightening and relentless - hackles up, fast as lightening, snapping around the hooves of horses, pinning little dogs down with snarling teeth, taking on everything. Almost a year of weekly obedience classes did little to improve the situation except she learnt the commands. She became a highly-reactive obedient dog?! At the same time we were taking her to the well-populated dog-park on a daily basis.

But why though? Surely this wasn't enjoyable for either of you, nor anyone else at the park?

It's amazing, though, how she remembered those attackers from her first times at the dog park. They disappeared for a long time, but returned when she was almost eighteen-months old. When they tried their confrontational antics again with her on the lead as soon as I had walk in the dog-park, I let her off. She was no longer a little puppy. It's the only time I have felt overjoyed at seeing her skittle a pack of dogs - m@ngrels! A confidence-building exercise. :)

And I have to disagree with this too, sadly. Confidence building is not allowing your dog to skittle other dogs, no matter how poorly they've behaved in the past. I wouldn't be happy to see that at all.

And you never know what the other dogs are capable of.

I'll get back on topic....sorry everyone!

Edited November 18, 2013 by Steph M

[dogmatic]

So, I don't believe that temperament is entirely hereditary. A lot of people do.

I do believe that a dog's personality is shaped very early in life. At least I'm working on that idea.

Of course, you can't kick a dog with parents who both had amazing tempraments and expect it to never react. Makes perfect sense to me that external stimulus plays a huge part in mental development, the same way it can physically affect development too.

I discovered that she had an intense attack-first-ask-questions-later approach to everything with four legs. At just four months, it was frightening and relentless - hackles up, fast as lightening, snapping around the hooves of horses, pinning little dogs down with snarling teeth, taking on everything. Almost a year of weekly obedience classes did little to improve the situation except she learnt the commands. She became a highly-reactive obedient dog?! At the same time we were taking her to the well-populated dog-park on a daily basis.

But why though? Surely this wasn't enjoyable for either of you, nor anyone else at the park?

It's amazing, though, how she remembered those attackers from her first times at the dog park. They disappeared for a long time, but returned when she was almost eighteen-months old. When they tried their confrontational antics again with her on the lead as soon as I had walk in the dog-park, I let her off. She was no longer a little puppy. It's the only time I have felt overjoyed at seeing her skittle a pack of dogs - m@ngrels! A confidence-building exercise. :)

And I have to disagree with this too, sadly. Confidence building is not allowing your dog to skittle other dogs, no matter how poorly they've behaved in the past. I wouldn't be happy to see that at all.

And you never know what the other dogs are capable of.

I'll get back on topic....sorry everyone!

Steph M Sorry we disagree on so many aspects. I can see how easy it is for an onlooker with no experience to criticise. With a reactive dog, you soon learn that everyone else who has (or had) a dog suddenly becomes an expert on dog behaviour.

Firstly, I explained that a dog with perfect temperament came from one without. You're the only one who mentioned kicking a dog to bring out bad temperament. As I said, my younger one was highly reactive to everything with four legs from the moment she could go outside. I recognised that as a fear reaction that I could relate to an incident she had as a baby puppy. hankdog asked earlier if their was hope of changing a dog's personality, and I tried to explain that I didn't think it was entirely hereditary.

I didn't realise how obnoxious dog-parks can be until it was too late. I unfortunately listened to too many "socialisation" experts extolling the benefits of dog-parks. Once I was in there, I had to see it through. I couldn't walk away with a dog who was even more fearful because of her experience at the dog-park than when we started.

[Steph M]

So, I don't believe that temperament is entirely hereditary. A lot of people do.

I do believe that a dog's personality is shaped very early in life. At least I'm working on that idea.

Of course, you can't kick a dog with parents who both had amazing tempraments and expect it to never react. Makes perfect sense to me that external stimulus plays a huge part in mental development, the same way it can physically affect development too.

I discovered that she had an intense attack-first-ask-questions-later approach to everything with four legs. At just four months, it was frightening and relentless - hackles up, fast as lightening, snapping around the hooves of horses, pinning little dogs down with snarling teeth, taking on everything. Almost a year of weekly obedience classes did little to improve the situation except she learnt the commands. She became a highly-reactive obedient dog?! At the same time we were taking her to the well-populated dog-park on a daily basis.

But why though? Surely this wasn't enjoyable for either of you, nor anyone else at the park?

It's amazing, though, how she remembered those attackers from her first times at the dog park. They disappeared for a long time, but returned when she was almost eighteen-months old. When they tried their confrontational antics again with her on the lead as soon as I had walk in the dog-park, I let her off. She was no longer a little puppy. It's the only time I have felt overjoyed at seeing her skittle a pack of dogs - m@ngrels! A confidence-building exercise. :)

And I have to disagree with this too, sadly. Confidence building is not allowing your dog to skittle other dogs, no matter how poorly they've behaved in the past. I wouldn't be happy to see that at all.

And you never know what the other dogs are capable of.

I'll get back on topic....sorry everyone!

Steph M Sorry we disagree on so many aspects. I can see how easy it is for an onlooker with no experience to criticise. With a reactive dog, you soon learn that everyone else who has (or had) a dog suddenly becomes an expert on dog behaviour.

Firstly, I explained that a dog with perfect temperament came from one without. You're the only one who mentioned kicking a dog to bring out bad temperament. As I said, my younger one was highly reactive to everything with four legs from the moment she could go outside. I recognised that as a fear reaction that I could relate to an incident she had as a baby puppy. hankdog asked earlier if their was hope of changing a dog's personality, and I tried to explain that I didn't think it was entirely hereditary.

I didn't realise how obnoxious dog-parks can be until it was too late. I unfortunately listened to too many "socialisation" experts extolling the benefits of dog-parks. Once I was in there, I had to see it through. I couldn't walk away with a dog who was even more fearful because of her experience at the dog-park than when we started.

We most certainly do. I don't claim to be an expert, but allowing your dog to 'skittle' or otherwise harass or hassle other dogs is irresponsible and illegal.

Taking your dog who displays her

intense attack-first-ask-questions-later approach to everything with four legs. At just four months, it was frightening and relentless - hackles up, fast as lightening, snapping around the hooves of horses, pinning little dogs down with snarling teeth, taking on everything

is, in my mind, poor management.

And I don't agree with immersing her further into an obviously uncomfortable (albeit downright dangerous) situation. Again, not proclaiming to be an expert, but if that were my park and you were allowing your known to be DA dog off-lead, I would be very, very angry and certainly would not hesitate to report any and all incidents to the ranger.

I have a dog who's afraid of lots of things, I don't push her into it and force her into things she's genuinely fearful of. We know her limits (older, bearded men being top of the list) and we avoid them where we can't make the experience a positive one. We're blessed that she just cowers behind me and doesn't react aggressively, and that she's young, responsive and pliable. We're making progress but I certainly wouldn't take her to a retirement home or similar to just throw her in the deep end to 'see it through'.

I don't want to escalate her to the point where she shows aggression. She's a very, very minor case but we still adapt and accept we manage her differently.

However I was actually agreeing with you RE temperament. It's all relative and as much nurture as nature, in my mind.

[huski]

When they tried their confrontational antics again with her on the lead as soon as I had walk in the dog-park, I let her off. She was no longer a little puppy. It's the only time I have felt overjoyed at seeing her skittle a pack of dogs - m@ngrels! A confidence-building exercise. :)

But it's not building confidence for the right behaviour, it is building her confidence that aggression is the way to deal with fear or anxiety, and teaching her that's how to interact with other dogs.

Every time we put our dogs in a position where they can act aggressively they are rehearsing the behaviour and it becomes more and more habitual.

Giving a dog aggressive dog more opportunity to rehearse aggression and gain success from it isn't the way to successfully modify their behaviour.

[Steph M]

Much more concise than my ramblings.

[dogmatic]

:) There was no way I was going to drag her straight back out of the dog park with those m@ngrels snapping at our heals. I simply let her off. I wasn't teaching her anything, she wasn't rewarded or praised, but she definitely had an air of confidence when she went off to play with her friends. That was the last time those dogs ever went back to that dog-park. I think the handler was disappointed that his dogs turned out to be chickens. :)

As explained, she had been confronted by that same pack when she was four or five months old - within a metre, snapping and snarling with heads down low, stirring up the dust. Sometime later, I asked who owned the pack of dogs and a man stepped forward claiming to be an "animal behaviourist" from the university, defending the behaviour of his dogs with idiotic phrases that I couldn't repeat. (He's possibly a regular contributor to this forum.) Fortunately they disappeared from our dog park for a year or so. We persisted though, and we were there at the dog-park, every day - rain, hail or shine, and, as I said, she made friends with other puppies and dogs - most of the regulars in fact. However, she would react to any new-comers, so I was always watching the gates. The regulars knew us well. We miss them. Unfortunately there were one or two people who had no idea what I was attempting to achieve, and it was often a case of one step forward, two steps back. The final achievement was my dog skittling that pack of m@ngrels. It wasn't aggressive and it certainly wasn't out of fear. It was very satisfying, and she is all the better for it.

Now come on "behaviourists"... any other advice?

[raineth]

dogmatic, a reward doesn't have to be praise or a treat or a pat.

Sometimes the best rewards are functional. To most reactive dogs increased distance is a big reward, it is why they display their reactivity.

So by her skittling those dogs and having them run from her, I would say that worked as a reward :)

I'm not a behaviourist, just the owner of a reactive dog.

[raineth]

Rainy if my girl dog thinks OH or I are the slightest bit displeased with her she will be at our feet like a shot, wiggling and looking as cute as possible to make amends. Weez on the other hand would be out of sight as quickly as possible, he just can't handle it. Seems like some dogs just have a 'come closer' reaction to an angry owner (which then reinforces the behaviour of the owner if they're that way inclined )?

wow that's really interesting LBD; certainly not something I'd have thought of and really makes sense in terms of reinforcing the owner's behaviour too. She sounds like a sweety, is she one of those dogs who can also calm down a not-so-friendly approach from another dog? (just the picture I'm getting)

She's awesome :p Honestly I think we could train her with punishment, or just about any method, and she would still learn - she's just so clued into reading and communicating with humans. But no, the flipside of that is that she is just not good with other dogs. She would rather they didn't exist, just ignores them until they are up in her space then will tell them to p*ss off with growling and, if they really push it, air snaps. She's never played with another dog, despite all Weez's attempts. The boy is the opposite - he does calm down dogs and diffuse situations, but struggles with the people-world.

They both sound lovely :) She sounds so devoted to you and Weez sounds adorable :)

It's good to hear its not only Jake who learns a skewed version of what I teach him. He's reactive and I started rewarding him for being quiet when he sees my neighbors dogs and now if we are in the garden he spends all his time staring at their house and as soon as he sees them he belts over to me and demands a treat. By demand I mean comes in at a sprint and flattens me to tell me how good he is.

woohoo Jakey! Way to go! You are a good boy!

[dogmatic]

dogmatic, a reward doesn't have to be praise or a treat or a pat.

Sometimes the best rewards are functional. To most reactive dogs increased distance is a big reward, it is why they display their reactivity.

So by her skittling those dogs and having them run from her, I would say that worked as a reward :)

I'm not a behaviourist, just the owner of a reactive dog.

Yeah. I'm no behaviourist either. :) I only know one highly reactive dog and she's mine. I've heard of, and seen one other who is constantly on the leash where we walk.

In both cases, distance matters not. In my case, she would run a hundred metres or more to attack another dog or farm animal. The story I'm told about the other dog is that she/he slipped her lead and ran hundreds of meters through a forest to attack another dog which she/he seriously injured.

I'd be interested to hear of your experience, raineth. Sounds like you have a different type of "reactivity" to deal with.

[BlackJaq]

No, this kind of behavior is generally self rewarding, regardless of the type of reactivity. It's also often why the dog will ignore you and continue with that behaior, especially if it has worked in the past.

[dogmatic]

I thought of another highly reactive dog that I knew. She was a GSD who suffered terribly from Elbow Dysplasia - severe pain followed by a costly surgery. I met her when she was about two-and-a-half to three years old. I spoke to her owner at about twenty paces. The dog was firmly restrained and the owner told me to come no closer. The dog's surgery had been successful, but not long afterward the owner had her euthanaised (I'm not exactly sure of the reason).

No, this kind of behavior is generally self rewarding, regardless of the type of reactivity. It's also often why the dog will ignore you and continue with that behaior, especially if it has worked in the past.

BlackJaq, I'm not sure you understand the problem, which is understandable if you've never had a highly reactive dog. From the age of four months - from the moment she could step outside the yard - you could crack a whip over her head (not that I ever did), but nothing would deter her from her destructive intent. It was shocking. If you are looking for causation as to why she would ignore me, you need to look a lot lot deeper.

[BlackJaq]

I understand perfectly, owning a dominant reactive dog myself. He has some dog aggression tendencies in fact, not fear based.

You simply sound like you know nothing about how to deal with and re-train a reactive dog, which is a shame for your dog. Of course you cannot distract her. she does not give a shite what you are doing because her behavior is self rewarding and you obviously cannot compete with it at all.

[Weasels]

A dog in high arousal will prioritise visual stimuli, making their other senses (smell, pain reception, hearing) much much duller. This is one reason why a dog won't respond, but it isn't mutually exclusive from the act being self-rewarding. Dogs can be superstitious: I yell at that thing = it goes away without incident. Yelling is then reinforced and habit-forming. Yelling at the thing is suddenly the most important thing in the world, and the brain can't simultaneously process anything else.