Recall And Punishment

[dogmatic]

What I don't understand is that sometimes this method seems to work!?

I have never, and would never do it. But there are a couple of people in my neighbourhood who do use this method, and their dogs now have good recall

One of them is a Dane, so not exactly your most easily trained, naturally biddable, sort of dog.

I guess that eventually the dog will put two and two together and associate bad behaviour with punishment. I think most dogs will eventually come back to their owner whatever the circumstance. (Not sure about those hounds disappearing over the horizon though. :) ) In many cases, punishment does seem unnecessary and might have deeper psychological effects.

I've been guilty of punishment of the worst kind - total rejection of the young dog when she was attacking the day-old calves. "GO AWAY!" and even throwing things in her direction. When I'd finally calmed down, I tried to finish on a positive note with a recall and plenty of praise. Nevertheless, for sometime afterwards, I saw a noticeable change in her demeanour - she became suspicious of me which was a real worry. It's taken a while to work through. Behind her aggressiveness was a highly sensitive dog. The good thing to come out of the event is that I now have full confidence in her around the livestock, but I have a feeling that I did tip the balance a little too far with my over-reaction. There is a fine line that I wouldn't like test again, and I'd advise everyone to stay calm and avoid punishing their dogs, whether physically or mentally. Look for alternatives.

hankdog, after that confession, I don't think I'm in a position to give tips. For distance work, I'd say to be prepared to be the one doing most of the exercise. In the beginning reward every task on its own merit; walking to the distant dog and away for the next task. I don't think distant sits and downs are too hard provided the dog is initially on its feet and ready for the commands. I've always had problems with the stand/stay command whether distant or nearby. Like most exercises, the stop command just needs practice. I do it when there is no danger of the dogs taking off just to keep them conditioned.

Most of my training is adapted to my own daily life. For those who venture into the wilds, I have a good tip. When my older dog was young we'd regularly go off into the bushland. When she was too far away, I'd run off and hide silently. When she noticed I was missing, she'd panic, running back and forth. Eventually she'd use her senses to track me down and it was like all our Christmases had come at once. It did require some discipline and faith on my part, because while your crouched down behind the bush, things start to go through your mind - "She could have reached the road by now ...", "What if she's fallen down a ravine, or got her leg caught?" Occasionally I'd break and go looking for her, and find her looking for me in all the wrong places. Again it was like Christmas when we found each other. There was no command involved. To this day she won't let me out of her sight for more than 30 seconds or so, and it was amazing to see her natural shepherding instinct come to the fore. When there was a group of people, she'd be back and forth making sure everyone is accounted for. The technique is less effective with more than one dog because the older dog is usually the first to panic and find me, and consequently, the younger one is less interested in the game, but there can still be noticeable results.

Edited November 15, 2013 by dogmatic

[hankdog]

One good thing about a sep anx dog, he never let's me out his sight. That's the problem with distance work, if I put him in a sit and step away and then ask him to down he uses the down to get closer to me. At the moment I'll put him behind the gate to keep him away. We are also working on him going away from me to touch a cone, he doesn't find that one too hard if I gradually increase the distance but if I try pickup today from where we left off yesterday he refuses.

[Simply Grand]

What I don't understand is that sometimes this method seems to work!?

I have never, and would never do it. But there are a couple of people in my neighbourhood who do use this method, and their dogs now have good recall

One of them is a Dane, so not exactly your most easily trained, naturally biddable, sort of dog.

Dogs can be capable of making some quite complex associations, I wonder whether in these cases the dog has made the association that "me at a distance + owner saying 'X' + that tone and body language usually = getting a belting (or whatever punishment) soon" and "Being close to owner most of the time doesn't = getting a belting" so the dog thinks "better get out of scenario 1 and into scenario 2 to try and avoid belting". Even if the dog comes and it still results in a belting (scenario 3) there are still likely to be more occurrences of scenario 2 in life overall, so when dog finds itself in scenario 1 and doesn't actually know what to do, it goes to the owner trying to get back to scenario 2.

So whilst it appears to the owner that the dog has understood that it was the action of not coming when called that resulted in the belting, by the time the dog is back at the owner it doesn't know why it ended up in scenario 3 but has never been taught what the owner actually wants it to do when it's at a distance and the owner calls so it just keeps trying the only option it knows about, which is attempting scenario 2.

Sorry, I know that is super cofusing, hopefully it makes some sense Oh, and it's only my conjecture!

ETA - teaching a recall by rewarding the dog when it does come is the telling the dog what you actually want it to do part, so it eliminates the confusion :)

Edited November 15, 2013 by Simply Grand

[hankdog]

I think that could be possible but either way sounds like a confused and stressed dog. Some people are really nasty to their dogs and yet you see the dog constantly grovelling and hanging around them. You wonder though how the dog would react under a stressful situation.

I'm doing a lot of work practicing recall when my reactive dog is in a full tantrum. We are starting to get an extension of this and seeing the first signs of him turning to me after a startle rather than rushing away. It's an extreme example but I think he's getting it into his head that the way to get the unpleasant scary stuff to stop is to run to me where it all turns to pats and peanut butter. I can't see the same thing happening if I belted him. You can see I'm pretty stoked with the power of recall!

Dogmatic I belted Jake when he attacked the rooster. He avoids them now and even when the rooster attacked him he didn't respond. I don't trust him though and yes not my proudest moment. It's a bit like a kid that doesn't steal because he's scared of being caught rather than one who doesn't steal because he believes it's morally incorrect. Same behavior but not trusting the first one.

Edited November 15, 2013 by hankdog

[Aidan3]

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

The only way to get through to them is to call them over to you, then give them a good thumping. Then walk off, and call them to you again. When they don't come say "and that's why your dog doesn't come when called!"

[hankdog]

Haha Aiden2, that would pretty much explain it.

[Daisy.Tea]

It irks me so much when people do this, and then when they go on to complain about it.

[dogmatic]

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

The only way to get through to them is to call them over to you, then give them a good thumping. Then walk off, and call them to you again. When they don't come say "and that's why your dog doesn't come when called!"

I like that! :)

[raineth]

Aidan, have you considered a career in adult education? I think you have nailed the whole 'teaching through experiences' thing :D

Interesting ideas SG, MM, and dogmatic.I was thinking some more about it too, and the only thing I could come up with is that I might only be seeing one small part of the picture of what they are doing.

I'm sure if I tried that with Digby (which I would never, ever do) he would never trust me again. It would be awful. I certainly can't see it improving Del's recall either.

[Weasels]

Rainy if my girl dog thinks OH or I are the slightest bit displeased with her she will be at our feet like a shot, wiggling and looking as cute as possible to make amends. Weez on the other hand would be out of sight as quickly as possible, he just can't handle it. Seems like some dogs just have a 'come closer' reaction to an angry owner (which then reinforces the behaviour of the owner if they're that way inclined )?

[raineth]

Rainy if my girl dog thinks OH or I are the slightest bit displeased with her she will be at our feet like a shot, wiggling and looking as cute as possible to make amends. Weez on the other hand would be out of sight as quickly as possible, he just can't handle it. Seems like some dogs just have a 'come closer' reaction to an angry owner (which then reinforces the behaviour of the owner if they're that way inclined )?

wow that's really interesting LBD; certainly not something I'd have thought of and really makes sense in terms of reinforcing the owner's behaviour too. She sounds like a sweety, is she one of those dogs who can also calm down a not-so-friendly approach from another dog? (just the picture I'm getting)

[Simply Grand]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think it's a valid training strategy! I don't think it works to teach the dog recall, it just teaches the dog to desperately try and avoid punishment, without understanding why it is being punished. I doubt people that punish their dogs end up with a dog that goes to a distance and reliably comes back when called, I expect the dog eventually just stays close to the owner as it's too worried about the punishment to try and do anything at all. Wouldn't make for a happy doggy

[Weasels]

Rainy if my girl dog thinks OH or I are the slightest bit displeased with her she will be at our feet like a shot, wiggling and looking as cute as possible to make amends. Weez on the other hand would be out of sight as quickly as possible, he just can't handle it. Seems like some dogs just have a 'come closer' reaction to an angry owner (which then reinforces the behaviour of the owner if they're that way inclined )?

wow that's really interesting LBD; certainly not something I'd have thought of and really makes sense in terms of reinforcing the owner's behaviour too. She sounds like a sweety, is she one of those dogs who can also calm down a not-so-friendly approach from another dog? (just the picture I'm getting)

She's awesome :p Honestly I think we could train her with punishment, or just about any method, and she would still learn - she's just so clued into reading and communicating with humans. But no, the flipside of that is that she is just not good with other dogs. She would rather they didn't exist, just ignores them until they are up in her space then will tell them to p*ss off with growling and, if they really push it, air snaps. She's never played with another dog, despite all Weez's attempts. The boy is the opposite - he does calm down dogs and diffuse situations, but struggles with the people-world.

[dogmatic]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I think it's a valid training strategy! I don't think it works to teach the dog recall, it just teaches the dog to desperately try and avoid punishment, without understanding why it is being punished. I doubt people that punish their dogs end up with a dog that goes to a distance and reliably comes back when called, I expect the dog eventually just stays close to the owner as it's too worried about the punishment to try and do anything at all. Wouldn't make for a happy doggy

I could see that you weren't advocating punishment - just questioning why it seems to work in some cases.

I'd like to describe the incident that sparked this thread a few days ago.

We had just started our long daily walk. It's basically a very large open field surrounded by grazing land with trees here and there. Quite often there are no other dogs there. Ahead of me down the track, I saw a man jogging with a pair of large active dogs. They were all coming toward me. At about two hundred metres distant we veered off the path which we usually do. At that point I heard the man yell at his dogs, but I saw it was to no avail. The dogs may have hesitated but they kept coming toward me and the man's yelling increased - still to no avail. The two dogs looked intimidating and the desperation of the man's yelling was a bit of a worry. I'm fortunate enough to have an older dog who can take on all-comers with love and affection, and who has faced this sort of thing many times before, and I was glad to see my younger one staying calm under my direction. There was harmless contact with my older dog and a fair bit of dancing around. By this time the man was about a hundred yards away, but still on the track, and not coming toward me or his dogs. His dogs seemed oblivious to his shouting. It was probably only 5 minutes or so before they returned to him.

When I had finished praising my dogs, I looked up and shouted "What breed are they?" But he didn't hear me because he was too busy holding one of his dogs down to the ground, belting into it, and it was yelping with every thump. I didn't watch any more.

Those were mature dogs - a grey brindle with pointy muzzles. That's all I know. Whatever training methods the man had used in the past clearly didn't work for the situation the other day, and I seriously doubt that the "training method" used on that day was any better.

[Simply Grand]

Oh that's horrible dogmatic Absolutely agree with you, no way is that going to teach the dogs to come to him, if anything I bet his dogs attempt to avoid him, at least subtly, whenever he comes close to them.

[dogmatic]

On a lighter note, we had some Ridgebacks with us on today's off-leash walk. The Ridgebacks are well know to us. Their principle walker was unavailable today so the onus was on me to keep them safe. I knew about their apparent arrogant nature. At one stage, the younger Ridgeback was focussing intently off into distance in a direction where we definitely did not want him to go. I called him once, twice, three times - the third time at the top of my voice. (Are Ridgebacks' ears glued shut to the sides of their heads?) As soon as I had his attention, I ran in the direction we wanted to go, slapping my thighs and carrying on. He came to me and got praised! Some time later, he had disappeared. I called his name once, and he came to me again. This time a big cuddle. :)

[Redsonic]

I have a slightly different recall problem to those mentioned so far. I have rewarded my dog's recall so much that the command "come" has become a reward in itself (tertiary reward).

He hangs back on walks, waiting for me to call him and has discovered the most reliable way to hear the magic word "come" is to run towards other dogs (he has no interest in actually meeting them!).

He always comes when called which is great, but I hate rewarding him for running towards other dogs! I am working on a distant sit command, and like Dogmatic's idea of a stop command too.

As Simply Grand said, dogs are capable of making really complex associations!

[Simply Grand]

Funny you should say that Redsonic as my girl Quinn has figured out the same thing about jumping on people, I was rewarding her when she approached someone and didn't jump on them, so now she runs up to people, deliberately doesn't jump on them then runs back to me expecting a treat...sigh. It's better than her jumping on people but not what I meant to teach her! Afraid I haven't figured out the solution yet

[OSoSwift]

I love dogs are so smart........even if it can be somewhat frustrating!

[hankdog]

It's good to hear its not only Jake who learns a skewed version of what I teach him. He's reactive and I started rewarding him for being quiet when he sees my neighbors dogs and now if we are in the garden he spends all his time staring at their house and as soon as he sees them he belts over to me and demands a treat. By demand I mean comes in at a sprint and flattens me to tell me how good he is.