Recall And Punishment

[dogmatic]

We have the great benefit of a large semi-rural off-leash area.

So often I see other dogs bounding up to mine and their owners yelling their heads off to try and get their dogs to come back. I don't particularly mind over-exuberant dogs and it gives me an opportunity to test my own training skills with my dogs. However, when those other dogs do eventually return to their owners, their owners invariably give them a good thumping.

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

[hankdog]

It's the crazy thing isn't it,so obvious to see that you shouldn't punish the dog for finally turning up but very natural when you're a human to think he will know he got punished for turning up slowly. Most people understand when it's explained to them but its how to do it tactfully. I guess if you practiced recall in front of them or said something sympathetically that your dog used to be a slow recaller until you started treating with amazing treat X and practicing all the time. I think recall should be the most practiced skill, before sit or down or anything else.

[Leah82]

You want your dog to want to come back to you, so when it does make sure you reward it.

If you punish your dog then it will be expecting that in future and it will be even harder to get him/her to come back. Simples :)

This was raised at dog training the other week, Sarah and I have finally advanced to class 3 where the off lead work starts. A few dogs decided that off lead stays were a good excuse to run around like crazy and playing try and catch me with their handlers. The instructor made sure the handlers rewarded their dogs once they eventually returned :p

You can saying something like their dog might be more motivated to come back quicker next time if they reward it when it finally does

[dogmatic]

It's the crazy thing isn't it,so obvious to see that you shouldn't punish the dog for finally turning up but very natural when you're a human to think he will know he got punished for turning up slowly. Most people understand when it's explained to them but its how to do it tactfully. I guess if you practiced recall in front of them or said something sympathetically that your dog used to be a slow recaller until you started treating with amazing treat X and practicing all the time. I think recall should be the most practiced skill, before sit or down or anything else.

I agree.

Sometimes I feel like yelling "AND YOU WONDER WHY YOUR DOG WON'T COME BACK!"

Whenever my dogs, as puppies, came back, I'd carry on like we'd won the lottery. It's a bit hard to explain that to other people while their laying into their dogs.

Another command I use with the dogs is "Stop!" It has turned out to be far less formal than a stand or a stay - as long as they stop running, chasing, or moving away from me, I'm happy. For me, it's even more vital than the recall. It requires a lot of practice.

[BlackJaq]

Maybe you could approach these people in a friendly manner and ask them about their dog (throw in a complement on "cute, pretty, beautiful, goofy, whatever seems appropriate" pup/dog) and then after the ice is broken, maybe comment along the lines of "my dog used to do that but then I tried this" etc.

I like to teach my dogs from the start that their name is the best thing out because when I say it, they get a treat. Obviously they can't get a treat if they are over there and I'm over here. So, first at home, inside, I say their name, as soon as they look at me (while next to me) I give a treat. Practice with a leash on so you can help the dog along by gentle pulling it over to you, or giving a slight tug on the collar to get its attention. Treat right away as soon as the dog turns to you (and is beside you, obviously). Then step away from the dog and do the same thing (encourage dog to you via lead and make sure dog looks at you, treat as soon as correct behavior is offered).

Then same thing outside. Then same thing on a long lead. Then with distractions but still on lead. Reinforce this over and over, especially while the dog is doing other things.

Once the dog responds right away, do it randomly without lead, first inside with minimal distraction, then in a fenced in area, then from further away etc etc.

Obviously it takes a little while to explain this to the other person but most people find it works quickly and well. For more driven dogs (high prey etc) you may need a more extreme form of recall training but I find this works well for most average pet dogs.

[tlc]

I struggle with this at times as my oldest likes to say hello to other dogs at the park, which is fine if both parties are agreeable. but on occasion he takes it upon himself to go and say hello to other dogs off lead and when I call him back it might take a few calls for him to come but when he gets back I am so annoyed but how do I deal with it?

I am torn between wanting to treat him as he did eventually come back but not right away. He gets back with a big grin as if to say "well I am here you called wheres my treat?" :laugh: I just don't treat him.

But it is so annoying not sure how else to handle the situation. It's no biggy we are at a huge off leash park and most dogs are off lead and he is a good judge of other dogs, if he gets close and they are displaying any agro he just stops watches then comes right back. The other three never go with him so theres no issue there, but I'd like to be totally in control of how far he goes to say hello to another dog.

Some days his recall is perfect and others not so much. Glad the other three younger ones don't do the same.

Will watch this thread with interest.

[BlackJaq]

(...)

I am torn between wanting to treat him as he did eventually come back but not right away. He gets back with a big grin as if to say "well I am here you called wheres my treat?" :laugh: I just don't treat him.

(...)

I would teach the behavior you want as its own "trick", as per my description above. Just like you would teach your dog to shake hands or roll over, you don't just expect the dog to pick up on the right behavior during general handling, but rather you go into a controlled situation and explain to the dog exactly what it is you want when you give the specific command. This way, the dog learns that you want a fast return. The dog might not actually realize that you care how fast he returns. He might be convinced that returning at all, in his own time, is all you ask.

I often find myself getting frustrated with one of our dogs for not responding to a command I give the way I want. I then have to think about whether or not I actually taught that dog what I want, or whether all the other dogs already know this command but I haven't taught this particular dog what it means. I find generally it is my failure to teach correctly, not the dog's failure to respond correctly, since I haven't taught him or her precisely what I want in the first place.

[huski]

TLC I would personally be using a long line if recall isn't 100% yet.

I have a set criteria for recall which is I train my dog to come every time on the first command. I don't want to repeat the command and if I had a dog that ignored the recall sometimes or only complied when I repeated it I would retrain it with a new word that hasn't been 'tainted' so to speak. When I am training recall I consider a dog that doesn't come the first time as 'failing' that recall, because it doesn't meet the criteria I have set.

[dogmatic]

BlackJaq, I've seen this often with different people and different dogs in different situations. A couple of times I've tried to help people find their wayward dogs and have insisted that the dog not be punished when it eventually showed up, despite the obvious annoyance of the owner. Usually the dog is wagging its tail with a goofy grin. I don't know what to do in this situation, but I can't help feeling that punishment is not the answer. I usually never see these people again.

tlc, A smaller dog park is a different situation especially if there is a lot going on. The best advice I've heard is to avoid attempting to train in that environment. Even if it is perfected in a more controlled environment, the best trained dog will struggle. I'd go even further and say don't waste your breath with any commands at the dog-park, especially if there is a high risk that the dog will disobey. On the other hand, if the dog is coming back to you of its own accord, you can give the command at the same time and reward. It's a type of pre-emptive training which I've had some success with. If you do give commands in the dog-park and the dog is distracted, try to remain neutral - no punishment or reward. Like hankdog explained, it's only human nature to get annoyed.

[minimax]

I struggle with this at times as my oldest likes to say hello to other dogs at the park, which is fine if both parties are agreeable. but on occasion he takes it upon himself to go and say hello to other dogs off lead and when I call him back it might take a few calls for him to come but when he gets back I am so annoyed but how do I deal with it?

I am torn between wanting to treat him as he did eventually come back but not right away. He gets back with a big grin as if to say "well I am here you called wheres my treat?" :laugh: I just don't treat him.

But it is so annoying not sure how else to handle the situation. It's no biggy we are at a huge off leash park and most dogs are off lead and he is a good judge of other dogs, if he gets close and they are displaying any agro he just stops watches then comes right back. The other three never go with him so theres no issue there, but I'd like to be totally in control of how far he goes to say hello to another dog.

Some days his recall is perfect and others not so much. Glad the other three younger ones don't do the same.

Will watch this thread with interest.

I have one stubborn pug who sometimes comes when she feels like it, and she doesn't get a reward unless she comes the first time I call her (ie: drop what you're doing and come now). She gets grumpy, but I tend to reinforce with her what I'm looking for by using her re-call word about a minute later when she's not far from me so that she can see that a quick response gets a treat. Next time she tends to come back much quicker, and it often only takes one "I'll come when I feel like it" without a reward to get her recalling back at full speed.

[tlc]

Glad I am not the only one, the thing is in other situations at training etc he comes back first cal every time, formal recalls no worries down pat. I think at the dog park It is probably my own fault as I don't tend to be as strict.

Cooper has always been one to test the boundaries but in more recent years he has mellowed a lot. Its funny this thread coming up today just after I had been to the park and this happened. I generally find if I see the other dog in the distance and he is looking like making a B line for it, If I catch him before he goes he doesn't go but once he goes and is past a certain point theres no getting him back.

This was constant when he was a younger dog but now only happens once in a while, probably when I am not on my game. Some great ideas here, thanks guys!

[tlc]

I have one stubborn pug who sometimes comes when she feels like it, and she doesn't get a reward unless she comes the first time I call her (ie: drop what you're doing and come now). She gets grumpy, but I tend to reinforce with her what I'm looking for by using her re-call word about a minute later when she's not far from me so that she can see that a quick response gets a treat. Next time she tends to come back much quicker, and it often only takes one "I'll come when I feel like it" without a reward to get her recalling back at full speed.

My lot are always more responsive if I have the treats in my bag. Today we had another three dogs with us and I find Cooper is more likely to do what he does if we haven't been out for a few days or if he hasn't seen other dogs for a few days. It's like he needs a fix of buddies. :laugh: If we have a stint of out and about every day for a while he doesn't bother.

[Kazhak]

I say carry treat bag & reward when dog comes back.. if I take my boys out to the beach for an off leash run I always take treats as I know they'll always come back & at the very least stay fairly close for treats :)

part of my agility training is recalls & it makes it easier if I practice the recall with my dog & treats.. means my dog is more likely to come when called, trust me my dog chased a chook on tuesday but came away the instant I called him & came to sit in front of me, big rewards were given, its because he knows he will receive a reward.

[dogmatic]

Generally I reserve the more formal obedience commands for the more formal settings such as obedience training and the back-yard.

Out in the field I use different words for less-formal commands like "Stop!" and "Here!" when I just want the dogs to come closer. There is a point where an off-leash dog - usually a younger dog - crosses the rubicon and you just know that everything is out of your hands no matter how blue your face from yelling. You really have to catch the dog's attention before that point. That's how my "Stop!" command came about. Necessity was the mother of invention with a particularly aggressive young puppy. "Stop!" had to be yelled loud enough that the dogs turned to me as if to say "What the ...?", and that was the point to say "Yes!" and go up and reward. The older dog was never trained this, but she's picked it up nicely at the age of thirteen. Who said you can't teach old dogs new tricks? Gradually there was less need to yell, and I'm almost confident that I can stop the dogs even after they've crossed the rubicon.

In the smaller, more populated dog parks I just give up. I saw a wonderfully-trained Kelpie puppy deteriorate to the point where I'm sure it was interpreting the words "Come here." as "Ignore me [the owner]." I conceded that it was leisure time for the dogs. The only word I used quite often was a firm "NO!" or "HEY!" when someone was behaving inappropriately, like mounting, or when I could see and hear that a fight was about to erupt. Plenty of praise and attention when things were going smoothly - unfortunately, not often enough. Sometimes I'd use a formal command, but only when I was assured of success, such as the dog right by my side. I rarely saw a dog that would do an immediate recall in the smaller dog-park. Those rare dogs were the envy of the majority.

I think the best policy is to give commands only when your likely to succeed. When things do go amiss, move straight on to something else. For example, if the recall is a fail, go up to the dog and make it do a sit then reward. It's not helping to improve the recall, but takes away the difficult decision about whether to punish or reward, and you can feel better about yourself.

[OSoSwift]

Punishing a dog when it does actually come is so counter productive it isn't funny. Dogs are not pre-programmed to know come means now!

How they are taught and rewarded or punished directly determines the decisions they make when faced with a recall.

[hankdog]

With Jake he can be almost belligerent seeming, wants to get in a quick bark or will continue to bark whilst coming back to me when practicing a distracted recall. When he does that I'll run backwards as soon as he gets to me using an excited voice and getting him to come in straight and with gusto. Might take a few tries but when I finally get a few nice steps looking all focused and excited then he gets the reward. It becomes a bit of a game as well. I've started to always put the finish in too, even if its just a random check in, in the garden so it keeps him with me for a few seconds and gives him a second reward opportunity.

I do like the idea of training a stop Dogmatic. I'm only just starting to do some distance work though, any training tips?

Edited November 14, 2013 by hankdog

[raineth]

What I don't understand is that sometimes this method seems to work!?

I have never, and would never do it. But there are a couple of people in my neighbourhood who do use this method, and their dogs now have good recall

One of them is a Dane, so not exactly your most easily trained, naturally biddable, sort of dog.

[Steph M]

Rosie can be a real cow down the park sometimes, her need to run is a higher value than most things, which I’m quite happy to indulge so long as she checks in and keeps an eye on her. Our park is about 2k’s for a full lap, a large, thin oval shape with a creek running down the middle. Sometimes she’ll be right at the end (just out of sight as it’s wide and straight) and I’ll think ‘ffs, I can’t get myself there fast enough to get her out of an inappropriate situation, should one arise’

Her recall was next to none when we first got her, and I worked my behind off attaching value to us, invested in a treat pouch and set off to a fenced park to feel her out and she is always incredibly good when I have a bag of kabana and cheese, though even now if I bring kibble or something less appealing you can see the change in her after she realises it’s nothing special. She just does her own thing.

She is getting better by the day though, she voluntarily checks in with us now and will happily come up for a pat and some cheese and even comes away from play (most of the time…)

I also find I really notice the difference if we’ve missed a few days at the park. She does really need her runs and even the cheese takes a back seat, you just gotta let her go and keep an eye on her for the first lap or so.

As frustrating as this is she's so sensitive at the best of times I would never ever smack her for anything, let alone doing what I want (albeit slowly)

I don't think I'd have got anywhere with either of them like this.

Gus is pretty good, he’ll tend to walk next to me and not go far these days, though I think sometimes he’s not having as much fun as he used to, not as big on being social and playing but he’s just growing up I guess. Sigh!

Very funny watching the two down the park. Gus wants something thrown in the water for him, less interested in other dogs and will do things purely because he’s asked and will do it for purely praise and a butt scratch.

Rosie weighs it all up, and you can see her tick. She will do something ONLY when it has met her criteria. Little cow. Lucky she loves food so much!

Interesting thread!

Edited November 14, 2013 by Steph M

[minimax]

What I don't understand is that sometimes this method seems to work!?

I have never, and would never do it. But there are a couple of people in my neighbourhood who do use this method, and their dogs now have good recall

One of them is a Dane, so not exactly your most easily trained, naturally biddable, sort of dog.

Maybe it works on the negative attention is better than no attention? It may be one of the only times they pay attention to them.

[Nushie]

Jager does really well with treats and naturally he is keen to stick close to us which helps with recall.

When he is offlead he generally has a natural radius around us that he feels "safe" in. And if he notices that he is outside of that radius he comes running back. If we notice that he has wandered a little too far we call his name. This isnt a come here signal its a "look at me" and focus. If he is too far away he comes back in, if he isnt he will just keep sniffing. If we want him to come back we call his name so he focuses on us and then call "come". He usually comes trotting back to us. If we want him to get back to us faster we call "Quick, quick, quick" in a higher pitch (sort of excited tone) and that usually gets him to pick the pace up to canter. But no matter how slow or quick he comes back, he always gets a treat, every time.